[TECH] Pitboss 33 IT and Tech Issues Thread

[scooter]

Hey guys. So a potential issue has been brought to my attention, and I think we ought to consider a fix. Apparently in PB18 a pretty severe issue with turnsplits came up, and it seems pretty likely we'll deal with it here. In that game, two players found out that in a modern war turnsplit the player who went first was severely disadvantaged because the second player was free to disconnect oil every turn with fighters, so the first player was unable to produce oil units because he was helpless to reconnect oil being in the first half of the split. That sounds like a complete nightmare. I think if someone was stuck in that position, a ragequit would be understandable.

With that in mind... is there any interest in simply all agreeing not to attack tile improvements by air? Disconnecting with land/naval units would still be fair game because that requires quite a bit more effort, but this seems like the most painless way of fixing this.

If anyone objects to this, there are other options we could consider, but I thought I'd throw out the cleanest solution first and see where that got us. We really do need to discuss this now before we get much further.

[pindicator]

Thanks for bringing that up now scooter; that's a really big catch!

Initial impression is that this is a good rule -- but I'll try to think if there's any potential issues. There could be strategic reasons to want to disconnect roads... but at the same time, disconnecting a road could be the very action that disconnects someone's iron. And I'd say the issue of someone being locked out of oil just because 1 fighter got through is a bigger negative than the loss of bombarding tile improvements by air.

[ReallyEvilMuffin]

Hey guys. So a potential issue has been brought to my attention, and I think we ought to consider a fix. Apparently in PB18 a pretty severe issue with turnsplits came up, and it seems pretty likely we'll deal with it here. In that game, two players found out that in a modern war turnsplit the player who went first was severely disadvantaged because the second player was free to disconnect oil every turn with fighters, so the first player was unable to produce oil units because he was helpless to reconnect oil being in the first half of the split. That sounds like a complete nightmare. I think if someone was stuck in that position, a ragequit would be understandable.

With that in mind... is there any interest in simply all agreeing not to attack tile improvements by air? Disconnecting with land/naval units would still be fair game because that requires quite a bit more effort, but this seems like the most painless way of fixing this.

If anyone objects to this, there are other options we could consider, but I thought I'd throw out the cleanest solution first and see where that got us. We really do need to discuss this now before we get much further.

I mentioned this quite a while back in my thread. It had passed my mind to be honest now! If there are other solutions could we hear them too?

[scooter]

The only other options I'm aware of is the game could be converted to sequential turns. I think it can anyway, someone else would have to verify that. My feeling is that it seems too early and too many players for that.

Open to other suggestions if there are other options.

[ReallyEvilMuffin]

The only other options I'm aware of is the game could be converted to sequential turns. I think it can anyway, someone else would have to verify that. My feeling is that it seems too early and too many players for that.

Open to other suggestions if there are other options.

Is that properly converted or just we play in a turn order and it is still essentially a simultaneous game?

[Dreylin]

The only other options I'm aware of is the game could be converted to sequential turns. I think it can anyway, someone else would have to verify that. My feeling is that it seems too early and too many players for that.

Open to other suggestions if there are other options.

Is that properly converted or just we play in a turn order and it is still essentially a simultaneous game?

The latter would still have the resources-disconnection problem though, wouldn't it? The only way it would work is if builds resolved at the end of each individual player's turn - like a PBEM - so they could always guarantee being able to reconnect their resources in time for production to take place.

I can imagine Coal would be equally disruptive to those with Coal Plants providing Power.

I think I'd support the no aerial bombardment of improvements suggestion over the current alternatives.

[ReallyEvilMuffin]

The only other options I'm aware of is the game could be converted to sequential turns. I think it can anyway, someone else would have to verify that. My feeling is that it seems too early and too many players for that.

Open to other suggestions if there are other options.

Is that properly converted or just we play in a turn order and it is still essentially a simultaneous game?

The latter would still have the resources-disconnection problem though, wouldn't it? The only way it would work is if builds resolved at the end of each individual player's turn - like a PBEM - so they could always guarantee being able to reconnect their resources in time for production to take place.

I can imagine Coal would be equally disruptive to those with Coal Plants providing Power.

I think I'd support the no aerial bombardment of improvements suggestion over the current alternatives.

The reason I ask is that I have realised there are other issues with air power and the simultaneous turns which if it could be converted would be the best possible outcome really. It's hard to explain, but is to do with when the damage is dealt, and when healing occurs.

If not, in light of those addition issues I would perhaps prefer a double split where 1/2/1/2, players use air units, then ground units. I can see how this would be annoying though.

[ReallyEvilMuffin]

I need to try an explain this, but air power gives the person playing first a huge advantage. I realised this during my current war.

Both players have armies that can move and hit each other, but cannot break through defences. They need to wait for reenforcements to proceed. Because neither army is moving, they heal at the end of each turn. They both have air support hitting their respective targets.

On the turn that a player going first in the turnsplit wants to attack, he uses his air power, reduces the enemy health then attacks. However his units are at full health, because they got their healing at the turn roll. If the second player had bombarded them it would have made no effect because at the turn roll they would have healed.

However if this were a sequential game, those units the first player would be moving would still be damaged - unless they took a turn to stand still without moving after being hit.

Therefore unless we change things around, essentially the person playing second gets one less chance to inflict air damage. When borders are a bit messy from conquests and armies can travel large distances on railroads, this becomes a big issue, especially with tight cultural borders.

[Dreylin]

The reason I ask is that I have realised there are other issues with air power and the simultaneous turns which if it could be converted would be the best possible outcome really. It's hard to explain, but is to do with when the damage is dealt, and when healing occurs.

Agreed, although I think it's more situational which half of the turn split is favoured as regards the ordered use of air power.

If not, in light of those addition issues I would perhaps prefer a double split where 1/2/1/2, players use air units, then ground units. I can see how this would be annoying though.

I would agree that this seems needlessly complicated - particularly when you also have to factor Naval units into the equation when Carriers come on the scene.

I don't recall seeing any major complaints about Air Power turnsplits during PB18, but maybe BGN can offer some perspective?

[ReallyEvilMuffin]

The reason I ask is that I have realised there are other issues with air power and the simultaneous turns which if it could be converted would be the best possible outcome really. It's hard to explain, but is to do with when the damage is dealt, and when healing occurs.

Agreed, although I think it's more situational which half of the turn split is favoured as regards the ordered use of air power.

If not, in light of those addition issues I would perhaps prefer a double split where 1/2/1/2, players use air units, then ground units. I can see how this would be annoying though.

I would agree that this seems needlessly complicated - particularly when you also have to factor Naval units into the equation when Carriers come on the scene.

I don't recall seeing any major complaints about Air Power turnsplits during PB18, but maybe BGN can offer some perspective?

You may not have seen my above post. Were there few tech parity fights in 18 perhaps?

If it can be converted to sequential, I would much much prefer this.