WW #43 - The Asha'man

[Dp101]

Just a heads up, don't expect cases from me for another couple of hours. I never managed to get mafia helper working on my phone and it is going to be hellish trying to sort through this thread on mobile, and I won't be home for another 1 1/2 hours at least. I will be happy to debate my innocence some more in the meantime however.

[Fenn]

Remote possibility of Gazglum being an SK aside, I'm convinced by his Cop claim. As scum he could have claimed an innocent result on Meiz, zakalwe, novice or Lewwyn - people who aren't sure to be town yet but (apart from perhaps novice) weren't likely to get lynched anyway...or cleared Dp101 if he was feeling risky, assuming Dp is scum. So points to him for clearing me. If Dp101 is lynched and is scum that 100% confirms Gaz beyond any doubt. Not that scum!Gaz would claim Cop in a 2v5 situation anyway!

Dp101

I still wonder what happened N1. The simplest explanation would be the Mafia also targeted Adrien, since nobody's stepped forward to claim Doctor yet. If we have an SK, they're doing a fine job of controlling themselves so far.

[Fenn]

In addition to Gazglum's claim, this seals it for me:

So, I'm sorry that we're not engaging more with you, Dp. The reasons for voting you aren't really ones you can explain away, though. To quote Zak:

Dp101. His contributions are not convincing. Voted for anyone but Prometheus yesterday. His sudden characterization of a couple of Novice posts as "very suspicious" seems extremely convenient. Discarded Mafia Lover, showing that he was willing to play as Mafia.

IMO this just makes you an objectively good lynch. To defend you need to find other reasons from your own play that show you're likely town, or find someone else who is an even better lynch.

Not that I'm convinced novice isn't scum, but this is a Good Post.

[Dp101]

Reread No1 is complete, and Gaz still looks like town to me. His caginess around his role made me suspicious of him early on, but I was worried that he was hiding something because he had something like cop, rather than the less charitable accusation of him being scum, and going after him might make the scum suspicious that he might be hiding something. I think it is very unlikely that he is lying about being a cop, as right now scum has done a decent job of avoiding Vig shots and the lynch, so crazy gambits are probably not needed. Overall, he reads like a town with a power role who needs to hide it, and right now that looks like exactly what he is. Novice will be next.

[Dp101]

Well, here is my reread of Novice. Now with quotes! After looking back at the quality of his posts rather than just blindly trusting people who think he is scum, he feels misguided at times almost to the point of being suspicious, but he always had a decent defence and recently has been looking more like town.

Mafia Godfather is a pretty nice role to pass up

What do you mean by this, Psilly?

I also don't plan to post much on the first day unless some decent posts/cases appear. Day 1 generally devolves into pure meta pretty fast unless someone embarrasses themselves and gets lyched, which seems pointless to engage in.

This particular variant is all about day 1 meta, and you are by your own account excited to see this game start, so why this attitude?

I would say that not having played scum for a while I would have chosen mafia goon over a plain vanilla townie, and I am surprised Lewwyn didnt too

Ambush or not, I think this is a valid observation. Not saying this to point the finger at Lewwyn, just saying that Jkaen is making valid points.

Oh yeah I missed that one

I did too on first read, +1 town point to Adrien for synchronicity.*
*And minus -100 points to compensate for bias.

Rowain, my thoughts on the perfect role for you: Innocent Child.

This posts feels a little overly aggressive for coming ~halfway through D1. The snipe against me feels very opportunistic and just an odd part of my post to focus in on, and also preaches the RB meta a little too hard for me ("What do you mean you don't want to immediately accuse everyone or don't have opinions on everyone right now, you must be scum!" My least favourite part of the meta, mostly because I'm bad at it)

Well played Psilly, your defense almost saved you

I'm very surprised novice kept his vote on you. Care to explain this again in more detail?

You mean, given this?

To me Psilly feels like a paranoid town. He seems to have all sorts of scum connections drawn on his mind, and is basing his suspicions around them. Something that is not so easily faked as scum I think.

Interesting that you should say that, because that was exactly the case in WW42 (he was town).

Like my signature says, I had to run at that point, I had domestic matters to attend to. Basically I had already had my second thoughts on Psilly and had decided to stick with the vote based on his bad reaction to my "You're misreading Lewwyn" comment.

Your comment was uncanny so I had to point it out, but I felt it would be best to ride out the Psilly vote and see what transpired. I half figured someone else would swing the vote anyway and we'd get more information with me staying on Psilly.

Couldn't really find one quote to properly illustrate my thoughts, so this one will have to do: I felt his participation in the Psilly lynch was a little odd. His attitude of "Well he is town, but he will die anyway so lets kill him now" feels like incredibly bad logic to me, and a scum just trying to sneak by with the bare minimum to explain why he killed a villager.

I think scum would prefer to mislynch Adrien and keep Psilly on the back burner. If you reread WW42 you'll see Psilly's talent for getting mislynched (or more fairly, our talent for mislynching him). That was in fact part of my motivation for NOT switching - as I said at the time I'd rather mislynch him now than later.

I haven't read that game, but shouldn't that increase chances that people recognize his play as town for that style.

If he pulled a repeat performance we would have lynched him again, his style was "objectively" scummy according to RB meta.

Round 2 of the "Psilly would die anyway, and he doesn't follow the meta, so we had to kill him" logic. Just because RB meta tells you he is scum doesn't mean he is scum, in fact because the meta is so well established it stands to reason that any more experienced scum buddies he might have had would have told him to follow the meta harder, and scum in general prioritise sticking to the meta and not taking risks to make cases far more than village does.

I'm not opposed to a mass claim but I think Jkaen, Gaz or Zak should dictate the order in which we claim.

This post on the other hand I like, scum would probably have put at least one of their buddies in here, but as we can see none of these people are scum (unless Gaz is playing the most insanely risky scum game of all time).

So yeah, overall he looked scummy early on but he has slowly been looking better and better. Null tell (you better get used to this, after the last couple of days my confidence in my logic is completely shot). Not sure who to do next, probably Meiz.

[Dp101]

Meiz I don't have much of a read on, but this makes me distrust him. He appears to have lurked even harder than I have (didn't count posts but it felt like this based on how many pages went by with no posts from him) yet hasn't really been called on it. Possible scumbuddy helping him out by not drawing attention to something that is hard to explain away? Only realy candidate I see for this is Rowain due to the continued town reads of him from Meiz

After rereading I have Jkaen, Rowain, Zak and Gazglum as town. Fenn leaning towards town. Prometheus as very neutral. Novice, DP101 and Lewwyn at the bottom with no particular order. Lewwyn likes applying pressure on people, but right after his vote on novice he starts backpedaling with "I actually think your idea that Psilly was detrimental to town no matter his alignment, and so leaving your vote on him was a sort of triage, is more of a convincing argument for your innocence than saying it was too much work to set him straight.". That's some lousy pressure applying I have to say

I enjoy quoting posts where they give suspects by scumminess from earlier on and comparing them now that we have more info. Unfortunately, this doesn't really tell us much. A very neutral read on Prometheus is useful if he gets lynched regardless of Meiz's status on the vote itself, as he can both claim not enough confidence to vote and still easily swing to bussing him. As with a lot of his posts, slight scum lead but nothing substantial.

As a side note, sorry Lewwyn but I'm currently reading you bussing your partners Prometheus & novice. But better not to get too ahead of myself here

If I start voting for you am I bussing you too?

The bias is strong.

I know town lewwyn likes to build up his own cases or if he is following others lead, he makes sure to dig deeper in to the case and bury his target. Neither is happening here. Your novice push was so mild it hardly exists. novices Fenn push is just side mentioned with "don't like it", which I find very strange, considering he's supposed to be one of your suspects. There's no reason why your Prometheus focus would stop you from questioning novice further on that.

Earlier you opened the door to BW on Prometheus, but found Rowain more interesting. However that subject is completely dropped when it doesn't gain traction. No effort whatsoever to dig evidence he'd be the scum. I don't think you believed in that push at all to begin with. I actually don't think you have conviction for any of your cases.

On the one hand, decent justification for suspicion on lew. On the other hand, I Really hate accusing people based on what they like to play, as this only leads to annoyance at having to defend the same thing every game, and their defence doesn't even tell you anything because they could literally just copy-paste the same thing from last game they played. Bit of a lazy attack, but the justification is not bad so

Meiz feels like either lazy scum or a town that doesn't want to make a mistake, however given that this isn't his first time I would expect him to have more confidence in his reads. Not prepared to vote him yet, but could be convinced to. Not sure who to read next, probably Fenn since that is another one I don't have a good read on (other than the near-confirmation of his role, but anyone can lie).

[Dp101]

Fenn feels town to me, but his behaviour continues to be a little odd.

Can't fault DP101 for chucking a Lover, it makes you about twice as likely to die every phase on average, even if the lovers share a topic.

The vanilla people there isn't much to say about. I can see somebody listing VT second so it would show up as their discard and deflect suspicion, but power role townies as well as mafiosos could want to do that. I am interested in knowing why Rowain immediately claimed his other discard, it is not as if a displayed discard of VT puts pressure on you to reveal your other roles.

Adrien, you don't think that 1-shot Vig is a stronger role than 1-shot Governor? The big problem I see with Governor is that it only wastes a Day phase; unless a Cop scan arises or the person who was saved dies overnight the conversation in the next day phase will surely return to them.

@Rowain, I haven't got any town vibes from Fenn's posts which is why I've keptd my vote on him. The only thing that makes me want to move is that he claims he would rank scum as his last pick for it being too stressful. Something I'd just have to take his word on. btw. Fenn didn't you consider asking Jabbz how backup doctor works if no doctor is chosen for the game?

I didn't, no - just assumed that a Backup Doc without any Docs around is just a VT with a fancy name. Even if that was the way it worked and I knew of it I'd probably still have put it second.

Lewwyn sounds more towny to me lately. Points for his case against Psillycyber which goes along the lines I was thinking. Also, I feel like his maths mistake wouldn't have happened if he was scum.

Dunno about novice. Feels like he's been skating by since the Psilly wagon picked up speed. Perhaps that's uncharitable.

This comment from Adrien about Meiz I don't like. It's as if he's basing his suspicion of Meiz off of him not specifically denying wanting to play SK. That's a flimsy meta argument if I ever saw one. And his run of justifying his stances with other people's reaction to Lewwyn and Gaz's case on Meiz is bizarre behaviour for a town. Don't you want to make your own opinions known?

At this point Psilly is the scummiest in my eyes, and my vote will stay on him, but Dp101's explanation for putting Mafia Lover 2nd and Hider 3rd doesn't sit well with me. Saying that he didn't think about the order at all is hard to believe. Plus even if Hider is a very weak role, you don't have to use it. Certainly not worse than vanilla, which is how he describes Mafia Lover.

These two posts together feel very unnatural to me. If I just put mafia lover second I'm not scummy, but the second I try to say why I am? Never before have I seen an explanation that makes someone trust their own opinion less (that might be a little overdramatic, but I genuinely am mystified by this behaviour).

If I've been drifting along this first day and sounding non-committal, it's because that's how I feel. I haven't formed 100% reads on anybody and I don't have it in me to act like I do. Not confident in either of the top two wagons, but I feel a little worse about Psilly than Adrien.

Some might read this as scum, but I can sympathise, this has been my life for the past couple of days.

Huh, interesting N1. Let's take a look at Adrien's last post:

[gazglum quote]


To be honest in a purely meta perspective it would have been a thousand times better if I had died last night. I'm happy that I'm alive only because I enjoy playing. And of course, because Psilly probably enjoys playing too it's sad that he had to die in an unfair way like that.
You think I should have said something earlier today ? Well for some reason I went to bed late last night, and I had some stuff to do today so while I followed the posts I didn't take the time to intervene (also I didn't feel the need : unless a vig shoots me I'll be alive tomorrow to explain what needs to be explained). My "second chance to prove my towniness" can come very easily tomorrow.

The "exciting brush with death" was only the second most exciting thing that happened last night, sorry for not reacting like I normally would have.

Gazglum you must have a power role or you wouldn't have discarded doctor (regardless of what you stated about doctor being a late game role). If you're another roleblocker you can roleblock me (actually please do). If you're a vig please don't shoot me (or anyone actually, shooting right now is premature). You can always shoot me on n2 if you still think I stand out.

From this it's pretty clear that he had some trump card in mind, and since he was a Mason he probably did have a partner. I don't agree with Jkaen that a singular Mason or Lover wouldn't happen, but why would Adrien make a post like this if he didn't have somebody to corroborate his innocence? The roleblocker comment I don't get (couldn't scum have somebody else make the kill if Adrien was one of them?), but we know now he was innocent so who cares.

So while I still think Jkaen's behaviour over Day 1 is odd, and not switching off of Dp101 was a mistake, absent anybody counterclaiming I think he has to be the other Mason.

On the one hand, yay, he didn't try and disprove confirmed town, town points. On the other hand, it is very easy for scum to trust and agree with a claim that functionally does nothing except clear them as town if they are just going to kill them later.

Alright, I think that's been long enough. Dunno what the scum were up to, but I'm a Vig, and I shot AdrienIer last night.

Between how he was only spared the lynch due to mod error, his unconvincing (to me) post in the night, and several people declaring their intent to vote for him tomorrow, it seemed to me that he was the de-facto lynch target going into Day 2 . For that reason I decided to shoot him, so that we could try lynching somebody else, and hopefully Adrien would flip scum too. Obviously I had no inkling that he was in a Masonry with somebody else or I would have held off on doing anything.

Still, it's not a total loss. Jkaen is confirmed town in my eyes, and if you believe that scum would never have NK'ed Adrien last night then that points to me being town as well. I delayed claiming Vigilante so we could get everyone's speculation on who killed Adrien and why.

And now for the vig post. Nothing about this feels explicitly scummy, although I slightly disagree with taking away the town's lynch target as a matter of principle (you can still get info from how people respond to it). My only main point of confusion is why wait so long to claim? It isn't like you will get nightkilled if you tell people what happened earlier in the day, unless a dayvig comes out of nowhere but that is so unlikely I don't know why you would assume it. One could argue that he was waiting for reactions, but why wait? All we got was a chorus of "wat", and this tells us nothing about anyone's alignment.

Deadline for me would be 1500, so 3:00pm.

You aren't even trying to say that I'm an SK. You're claiming that, after a night in which only one person died, and after Rowain argued that Adrien could very well have been the mafia's target, the Mafia that I'm supposedly part of decided to claim Vigilante while under very little pressure because...?

How do you know the mafia was under very little pressure?

I meant myself, that I was under very little pressure ie. one or two votes. Who are you trying to fool with these lame gotchas?

My apologies if the town cred you've been promised is not materializing.
The motivation for claiming vigilante as scum is clear, it's a very convenient safe claim.

No, it isn't in this situation. I had absolutely no reason, as scum, to claim Vigilante at this point in the game. I was nowhere near danger at that time or at any point in the day thus far, and nobody claimed to have tracked or watched me killing Adrien. Your case against me amounts to generalities about what fake claims scum like to make and nitpicking at my choice of words. You know I'm not on your scum team and have said or done nothing inconsistent with being townie, so instead you try and trip me up on technicalities.

By the way, who do think my hypothetical scum partners are that they would heartily approve of me making a Vig claim in the middle of Day 2 for no reason? Do you even have any other suspects?

This defence of vig and why he would be stupid to claim it feel genuine, and I myself am still struggling to find a reason to claim vig when he did as scum.

Overal perspective is town, but his play looks odd enough to me that I could see him being scum that is just playing a gambit to play mind games with town. He could also be SK playing the textbook game of "claim vig and kill without restriction", but this feels like SK would lose their nerve to try it because they would have a hard time believing themselves.

[Dp101]

For the other 3: Dp101: His posts so far fit for scum and he was also the one who voted for me besides Prometheus. He didn't want to lynch Prometheus. (Bussing a scumbuddy is hard if you are both newbie scums).

Quick refrain from full rereads, why do you think I would bus my scumbuddy? I could have easily jumped on his case earlier when he had fewer votes and where it would look like I was actively hunting for scum, but I didn't and instead went after you. The towncred would have been easily to acquire, and I never have to defend scum. Instead I continue voting for you until the very end, making no attempt to help lynch my scumbuddy and get cover for myself. My play if I am scum is thus impossibly bad to make sense if I am scum.

[Dp101]

Lew time! He has been feeling vaguely like scum since his first post against me, but the cases against him feel like meta and wishful thinking

Reviewing the day

What, the day is just beginning a bit early to be reviewing the day no?

oh.
Or are you going to bed soon?

Nah, just overexcited. I have been anticipating this game's start for so long that I guess I jumped the gun in summing things up. I just really want to get to later days when we actually have enough information to start scumhunting in ernest. Although yes, I most likely will go to bed in the next few hours.

I'm scumhunting in earnest. Are you not scumhunting in earnest?

And part 1 of the train of "Lew jumps on my posts immediately" begins. Criticising me for word choice not once, but twice? Feels like pressure applied to the easy target, which is a valid scum tactic, although I dislike it.

Oh, and I wanted to poke Gaz with my earlier vote to see how he would defend the doctor discard, I think his explanation is fine, and he certainly would have known the heat that the discard would get him should he discard it for Mafia.

Given that I think it makes sense to switch onto a mafia discard claim

I seem to remember reading something about Novice being scum a lot lately, mafia lover i could possibly see being annoying, so for now I would say that not having played scum for a while I would have chosen mafia goon over a plain vanilla townie, and I am surprised Lewwyn didnt too

This is a whole lot of WIFOM and projecting personal opinion. I just didn't want to play scum this game. I don't think that is to hard to understand. I'm sure Zak has likely gone out of his way not to choose scum this game.

Basically for me I had two village roles and one scum role to pick from. Either village role would be preferable to playing scum. Right now I have a lot of free time for maybe the next 5 days, but after that I'm going to be grading finals, working a summer camp and then I'm travelling for two weeks. I didn't really want to disappear on a scum team like that.

I also chose scum in the last greater mafia game so I wasn't hugely keen on gunning for that again. If this game is successful and we run some more of these choice games...

Anyway getting asked this:

My anonymous discard was a mafia goon. Same as Meiz apparently. Welcome back to Werewolf Meiz!

Lewwyn, how recently have you played a werewolf?

makes me feel like I'm being set up, Jkaen.

You OTOH do like playing scum and your ranking that you would prefer VT over Goon is harder to believe. Doesn't make a scum-tell but I can understand Jkaens reasoning.

I like playing werewolf, whether I'm scum or not. There's a bit of a difference. Playing scum is always difficult and stressful. Given the choice, this time I chose something less stressful. And really it wasn't a choice between VT and Goon since both of those roles were discarded.

I can understand Jkaen's reasoning, and I am slightly swayed by his clarifying on the order of thought versus how it appeared to me. I'm going to bed, I'm betting I'll wake up to double the posts to read and have new opinions about.

Dislike these two cases against Lew, although we know that at least one of the people involved are town so it was more than a scum tactic. The defence feels fine, but as mentioned I dislike trying to accuse people based off of past behaviour, it is lazy scumhunting by scum at worse and wishful thinking by town at best.

I'm scumhunting in earnest. Are you not scumhunting in earnest?

This feels like Lewwyn trying to split hairs with Dp101. "Oh, you mean you're only REGULUR scumhunting and not scumhunting IN EARNEST??? Doesn't sound very towny to me, tsk, tsk." C'mon. I've already noted other ways in which Lewwyn seems oddly reactive and trying to reach to pin things on people this game.

lol wut?

Situational awareness: It's very very early. DP is a new player, I have no previous experience with him. He posts a "review" I give him a bit of pressure to see how he reacts. He reacts fine. I don't vote for him.

The charitable assumption is that everyone is trying to scumhunt on Day 1, with the understanding that it's difficult to go very far with it until things develop (which they are starting to quite nicely now, it seems). Lewwyn didn't seem to be applying this principle of charity to Dp101, and seemed to be reaching to read something questionable into his comments.

The charitable assumption? You realize that you can't just sit and wait for a wolf to make a mistake. You actually have to ask pointed questions and put a little pressure on people? If I wasn't applying charity to DP I would have voted for him. I think its fairly obvious I just wanted to see how he'd react.

Psilly

What a surprise, Lew going after the new guy again.

Whoa you guys taking notes of each other? Like almost the same time you guys posted.

Part 2 of "Lew jumps on everything I say that he can smear me for". The construction of a possible connection by Lew feels like he is trying to get people to read everything me and Prometheus through the lens of us being a scum team, and preparing a contingency plan if he loses an ally later to at least take down a town with him. If this is indeed an innocent town question, then I have to wonder, why bring it up at all? The only possible explaination is "coincidence" if we are both town. What did you want out of us? "Yeah, you got us, we definitely posted together because we just talked about it but couldn't be bothered to stagger our posts to appear less suspicious"? "Yeah, we are masons"? Just an odd post all round

Psilly reads as somewhat anti-town to my limited experience, and most of the other players appear to agree. So, Psillycyber .

Can you explain anti-town? I think Psilly is just scummy, but I'm not sure its been anti-town.

To comment some more on Meiz, I don't particularly suspect him, but he seems like a logical suspect for Psilly. And Gazglum makes a better case against Meiz than Psilly did against Lewwyn or AdrienIer.

Wait why would Psilly logically go for Meiz?

Some decent questioning of cases that could show a town willing to throw other people they think are town a bone or two. On the other hand, could also be scum preparing to have to wagon their own later.

Two people have wondered whether you were deliberately misunderstanding them. Like scum trying to twist their words to make them look bad. It makes me wonder if they were right. But that's not enough to get me to vote for you yet.

This is crazy. Lynch by proxy basically. You are willing to vote for me because someone else says they think I was deliberately misunderstanding them, but you don't presume to have an opinion on it? You'll just take it at their word? It reeks of let's just lynch anyone that isn't me.

Your list of who you'd be willing to lynch includes DP who you apparently are willing to lynch, but you also think his comment about me makes me lynchable. What? It's like you are saying you don't trust me because someone else you don't trust said something about not trusting me.

I'm seriously torn here because between you and psi I'm having a hard time deciding who is scummier.

This post feels like quite reasonable suspicion of a town, and doesn't swing either way. Just good to have this to reference and read into later

Oh man, I can't believe I get to ask this but are you deliberately misunderstanding me?

This quote is just here because I find the continued influence of word choice from my first couple of real posts to other posts hilarious.

novice

Dislike unsupported votes, and it didn't look like there was an obvious case this was agreeing with.

I know town lewwyn likes to build up his own cases or if he is following others lead, he makes sure to dig deeper in to the case and bury his target. Neither is happening here.

Well this is wrong. This is exactly what I did with my push on novice in post 375. I took your case, I went deeper, and then I pushed for more information from novice. It is patently NOT nonexistent.

I dislike novice's vote on Fenn because I think that Fenn's claim as a vig killing Adrien makes sense (I could also see SK), but doesn't make sense as part of a scum team. Didn't feel like I needed to say that.

It's probably a very good thing that Adrien was killed because I would have gone whole hog after him today if he was still alive.

Earlier you opened the door to BW on Prometheus, but found Rowain more interesting. However that subject is completely dropped when it doesn't gain traction. No effort whatsoever to dig evidence he'd be the scum. I don't think you believed in that push at all to begin with. I actually don't think you have conviction for any of your cases.

I opened the door to a BW on Prometheus? You mean when I said:

I agree on Prometheus.

in response to Gazglum? Yeah I said I agree with the idea that prometheus hasn't provided any solid cases. His suspicions mostly revolve around meta and he hasn't done anything to really dissuade me of that. I didn't vote for him at that moment because I was still voting for novice.

I also didn't vote for Rowain because other people were scummier. IE: my vote stayed on novice. Why aren't you voting for me Meiz? Maybe because you think novice is scummier? Tat's getting a bit hypocritical isn't it? You are allowed to suspect me but not vote for me, but I'm not allowed to suspect other people and vote for someone else?

This:

I'd still go with the bottom of my list at #384. Big part is process of elimination. Novice, lewwyn, dp101, prometheus. Interesting to see how serious Lewwyn is with his novice vote.

Seems like a threat. Basically you refuse to take any of my votes seriously and you are trying to get me to keep my vote on novice by implying I'm SCUMMIER if I don't keep voting for him.

I feel pretty spoiled for choice at the moment. Novice, Prometheus, at the top of the list, Rowain and you not far behind. I'm just watching what everyone is doing and yeah I don't have huge amounts of conviction in my cases. But I am exploring them. You attacking me for it is pretty weak sauce.

Criticism of Meiz which I like, but this again features the same kind of anti-noob strategy that can be seen in his other posts.

In conclusion, I think Lew is scum, but I'm not certain yet. Maybe he is just a great player, but I have a decent vibe of town in the wrong place at the wrong time from him. I also might just be biased against him because of his early pressure on me.

[Dp101]

Rowain time. As you all know I voted for him just before the lynch, and was proven wrong. Immediately this is a point in his favour, as I doubt that scum would screw up badly enough to have two scum as the only viable candidates on a lynch day.

Well well Day 1 starts and for half an hour nobody posts?


Additional to the vanilla townie I also discarded 1-shot Governor. I kept another role that is absolutely fitting to me .

It is my intention to claim it around lynch-time (either before or after depending what I deem better) so I'm very interested to learn what was the reason for zak to discard it and what was his 2nd discarded role.

novice

I am interested in knowing why Rowain immediately claimed his other discard, it is not as if a displayed discard of VT puts pressure on you to reveal your other roles.

The discussion about the secret roles would come anyway and better to start it now. The longer scum has time the easier they can come up with claims if they threw away powerroles.

And the calls for roleclaims start. I think that this isn't really that great of a way to catch scum, given 5 minutes they can come up with a half-decent claim and a story to go along with it, along with claiming their teammates as their buddies so that there is no chance of being proven wrong.

@Psilly you are correct and I'm not an innocent child

@novice you are the one who would chose to display this role as discard exactly for that reason.


My town-leans so far: zakalwe and Jkaen: Both look like their town-selfs to me and I do believe that zak would rather play town instead of scum this game.

Town points for correctly calling alignment, but scum can do this just as well. However, I think scum attempting to clear strong players is a terrible idea, so village is more likely.

And for the Regoarrarr-memorial award

2/54, times 3, times 12. We could easily have a couple of players who were given the choice to play as SK.

My bet is on Meiz.

I should have asked at the time, but what do you mean by this? Regoarrarr memorial award?

Your premise makes an assumption that completely depends on the person. I don't think there's much you can get out of it, however I'm not against people explaining why they wouldn't want to play as scum. For me, I've played scum 2 times, won the both games and haven't enjoyed it either time. Too time consuming and stressful for my taste. I've always liked the mystery solving part of these games and the reason I signed up here was the fact that I'd have much bigger chance to play as town.

Meiz has been very silent so far. I would like to hear his take on Fenn now.

Prodding the lurkers is an easy way to distract from lurking scumbuddies.

Two people have wondered whether you were deliberately misunderstanding them. Like scum trying to twist their words to make them look bad. It makes me wonder if they were right. But that's not enough to get me to vote for you yet.

But Dp101 saying that he felt Lewwyn was deliberately misunderstanding him deserves to be put in Lewwyn's record for later consideration.

I do have a problem with your reasoning for putting Lewwyn in your scummy-list. Had you said: "Lewwyn was deliberatly misunderstanding people here and here and this is scummy" I would be ok with it. But you are using "XY has said Lewwyn misunderstood him" and that is plain simply bad. It is hiding behind other people to mark one as scummy.

Your votes have been in a similar vein from "I feel uneasy about Psilly". (He could well be your scumbuddie and you were testing waters for later distancing) to "Good case Gazglum" without even mentioning Meiz' answer and finally "Meiz looks rather skish " which is funny as the good case from Gazglum was done with Meiz as scum.

AdrienIer

I already mentioned I think that accusations of hiding behind other people are logically sound and make sense for town.

As my time is running short.

My role is Paranoid Gun owner.


My vote stays on Adrien. For future references I do agree that Psilly looks fishy as hell. So far I'm also not impressed by Prometheus and Dp101.

And the roleclaim itself. Simply put, I find PGO a very anti-town role, and an easy way for scum to dodge cops. While it does protect you to some extent from nightkills, it also prevents town from gathering information on you through power roles, and town acquiring as much information as possible is the best way for town to win. Based on what I have heard of your history in these games however, I don't blame you for going for it if you are town, and it is a very convincing lie if you are scum.

so I don't really think I can trust their motivation.

Adrien was a mason, hence there must be another mason, unless anybody else comes forward I am a guaranteed villager

1) Why must there be another Mason just because Adrien was one? There is no proof of that. Going from the setup thread
the only thing that is stated there is:
Mason: If there are other Masons in the game, you will form a Mason group with them. There will be a Mason QT that can be used pre-game and during the Night.

Given that he would have been lynched has Jabbz counted right either you lie or you 2 are full blown idiots.

2) Why wouldn't he got nightkilled? Scum has often nk-ed the second suspect to throw town into chaos and don't leave tracks.

And the start of the attack against Jkaen. This is when I started to actively disagree with Rowain's behaviour and cases. Trying to cast aspersions on a claim that basically proves that they are a villager is the only way for scum to kill easily if there are doctors in the setup (and based on the discards there is a decent probability of at least one), so if Rowain turns out scum scum probably don't have a strongman. Of course based on Prometheus's claims they might have one, but then again why would scum tell the truth?

Rowain, when you first got dealt this hand, you said you ordered it in reverse. Can you go through your thought process again - why was your initial instinct that Paranoid Gun Owner is so much worse than anything else? And then why change your mind?

Rowain 'forgetting' to reorder it PGO > Governor > Vanilla is sloppy. Rowain is very rarely sloppy. The more I think about it, the more I don't like this.

When I first learned what the PGO does (cleared it with Jabbz) my first instinct was uggs a role that kills the own people is bad. As soon as I posted my first list I thought "Am I an idiot? PGO is exactly the role for me if I tell town early enough (around lynchtime D1). So I shot a new mail using Jabbz' order for timesaving (the 2 posts happened 2 minutes apart).
If you think I used a clever plan for that the why didn't I simply say Lover was my second discard where I could easily point to WW35 and my opinion about Loverrole there?
But this is now the last time I will talk about my discardorder.

Picked this post to comment on not necessarily because of the content but because this marked the start of the Gaz-Rowain conflict. Right now, it looks like confirmed scum, but what if we pretend that we didn't know Gaz was cop? Well actually, even then it looks anti-town at best and scum trying to spread dirt onto an otherwise clean villager at worse. Disliked it then, disliked it now. Based on some of the comments apparently this level of butting heads with town is normal for Rowain, so this might not be as much of a scum tell as I might think, but I still find it suspicious.

I would now really like for everyone to claim their role and their reasoning for picking and their nightaction if they did one including the reasoning for it.

And I would like it to happen in this order:
First Gazglum then Prometheus, Dp101, Fenn, Meiz, novice, Lewwyn, zakalwe

Assuming he doesn't BS us I would also like Jkaen to post what he and Adrien talked about in Masonthread and how Adrien tread the game.

And yes I want all powerroles because that forces scum whom to kill or to take risks. If we mislynch as often that this really becomes a problem then we deserve to lose anyway.

Continued requests for claims, they never end. My opinion on these have already been made clear.

I am unwilling to claim my role, as it would make me an immediate target for the night phase.

Currently you are running the risk to get lynched. I would suggest if the tally looks still bad for you a few hours before lynch you claim. It is better to be an obvious target during night (which might be saved one way or other) then losing another PR due to lynch.

Remember that swings can happen fast around here.

Helping new players who appear to be struggling comes off as town in my book. Scum would just let the villager trip over their own feet and get themselves lynched.

It is exactly the sort of thing scum like to do to build content and 'be involved' without actually hunting.

I think I play better scumgames than being so obvious.


But you are right I have stopped pressing people . I did it yesterday I built a case and was shown by NK that it was against a villager. As Psilly was also high on my scumlist I preferred to sit back today before I start killing villager left right and center.

Speaking of pressuring people all I see from today is the slaughtering of Prometheus so lets lynch him and see where it takes us. If he is scum then Hurray if he is town we are f***ed.

Prometheus

Dislike how resigned this feels, but at this point I can believe town Rowain acting this way.

With Prometheus not jumping on the vote Rowain waggon immediately I think he is town and we should not lynch him.

unvote

I really hate how wishy-washy Rowain was before the lynch. The least charitable interpretation is that he was debating whether or not to try and save his scumbuddy, but rereading the posts as a contiguous whole it feels more like frustrated town than anything.

In the end, the only thing I am sure of is that his behaviour has not been helpful to town. Whether or not this means he is scum is still questionable, but his posts feel almost deliberately unhelpful at times. Disclaimer, I generally dislike people who get angry while playing games and appear to take it out on other people, so I might be a little biased.

Whew, finally my aching hands can take a break after 1 1/4 hours of rereading and typing.