[Spoilers] Diving into shark infested waters

[Alhazard]

of course the supreme bad news is that molach finished astronomy

[Alhazard]

DTG dunno if you had a chance to look at my question but this is in earnest. I really want to know the secret of windmills.

[Commodore]

They turn turbines!

[DTG]

They're also great for tilting Knights:

[DTG]

Okay, serious answer is quite difficult because there are certain times when Mines are better than Windmills. But this is base BTS, and in base BTS food is better than hammers or commerce. Assume 1F = 2H > 2C, and that at higher pops this gradually flattens out (i.e. at size 13ish, you're getting close to 1F = 1H > 1C).

Big cities are better than small cities. Compare Gav/Zanth's core cities to your own (and yours to 2metra's).

Growing on Windmills is better than stagnating on Mines, unless you are at the happy and health cap. At that point then sure, work all the Mines that you want.

Look at the city in question:




I built the Windmill 1NE, you just built the Cottage 1SE.

If 1F = 2H > 2C, then a Windmill > Coast > Cottage = Mine.

Of course, Cottages mature over time, but the payback for the Cottage that you built (compared to a WM or Coast) will be 40 turns because it loses 10C in the ten turns it requires to become a Hamlet, it then needs 20 turns to become a Village, and then takes 10 turns to make good on the initial loss. Why not build and work a Windmill instead?

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I do want to know actually why you like windmills so much. Maybe I am missing something because I prefer making mines for hills and working enough food to feed the miners.

Again, assume 1F = 2H > 2C, and that at higher pops this gradually flattens out

Grass farm + grass mine = 4F 3H
Grass farm + grass WM = 5F 1H 1C

If 1F = 2H, then WM is better until a city has hit the health/happy cap.

Consider that if you run a Golden Age, the above becomes:

Grass farm + grass mine = 4F 4H
Grass farm + grass WM = 5F 2H 2C

Alternatively, Replaceable Parts comes sooner than Railroad. The benefits are instantaneous and don't require new improvements. This makes:

Grass farm + grass mine = 4F 3H
Grass farm + grass WM = 5F 2H 1C

In the late game, with Railroad (after you improve the tile):

Grass farm + grass mine = 4F 4H
Grass farm + grass WM = 5F 2H 1C

With Electricity (instant benefits):

Grass farm + grass mine = 4F 4H
Grass farm + grass WM = 5F 3H 2C

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However, more realistically you should be gradually shifting to a Caste Workshop + Windmill economy around about the time Guilds and (especially) Chemistry is in. Compare:

Grass farm + grass mine = 4F 3H
Caste Chem WS + WM = 3F 4H 1C
Caste Chem WS + RP WM = 3F 5H 1C
Grass farm + railroad mine = 4F 4H

In the late game, with large cities and State Property, you might convert the Windmills back to Mines, because you hit the health/happy cap and there are no further tiles to work.

Final example, look at my Heroic Epic city in PBEM 70:




If I had Farms + Mines, rather than WSs and Windmills, would the city have more or fewer hammers?

If I convert that last Mine to a Windmill, and then the Farm to a Watermill, does the city have more or fewer hammers?

[Alhazard]

I see your point never thought of actually counting yields that way.

To answer your questions.

1. If I calculate right, WS+WM vs farm+mine gives the same amount of hammers post-guild and pre-RP/chem but the former wins after RP/chem and in caste.
2. I think if you already have RP, the watermill+windmill actually gives you the same hammers as farm+mine but you get an extra commerce from the windmill.

and I build that cottage as a camoflauge really since that is an ideal fort location if I want to wage a naval battle to my West (yeah right).

[Alhazard]

Since the game is going really slow, why don't we talk about the ren game? Don't read the spoilers unless you plan to dedlurk me or be a global lurker

I played several SP test games so far. As far as leaders go, I really want a Spi leader and I claim that Ghandi is the best at this setup because by running pacifism with serfdom, we should be able to get at least 1 GE before anyone else and the Spiral Minet is a powerful wonder.
If we get 2 GEs first we can grab UoS as well.
I really like Asoka next because of the passive bonuses the most important being cheaper settlers. My third choice would be Isabella because of the cheaper settlers and the cheaper workers. The extra health will be relevant if the game goes to factories. I don't like Mansa since I can't imagine we will be building any cottages besides the capital's.

[DTG]

@Al re. the Ren. PB:

Spiral Minaret and UoS will be a poor use of GEs. The AP is not allowed, so you cannot get the religious building trinity, and Monasteries will be obsoleted fairly quickly. Workers and Settlers will also be more important than Temples, and without a huge number of cities the wonders just don't offer enough to justify a beeline.

If I were you, I would focus upon a plan to win Liberalism. I think being able to get this and reaching Communism ASAP (for both the Kremlin and State Property) will be the strongest play. 4x Great Scientists, to double bulb Education and Scientific Method, would probably be necessary.

That being said, I haven't tested or thought that much about the game, let alone running tests. This is just my first impression.

[ipecac]

If I were you, I would focus upon a plan to win Liberalism. I think being able to get this and reaching Communism ASAP (for both the Kremlin and State Property) will be the strongest play. 4x Great Scientists, to double bulb Education and Scientific Method, would probably be necessary.

Ren PB spoilers:

AP is banned?

For lib: after PP and Education is knocked out a Great Prophet can partially bulb Lib. Scaling of tech costs will affect bulbing strategies though.

[Alhazard]

If I were you, I would focus upon a plan to win Liberalism. I think being able to get this and reaching Communism ASAP (for both the Kremlin and State Property) will be the strongest play. 4x Great Scientists, to double bulb Education and Scientific Method, would probably be necessary.

Ren PB spoilers:

AP is banned?

For lib: after PP and Education is knocked out a Great Prophet can partially bulb Lib. Scaling of tech costs will affect bulbing strategies though.

Ren PB game

Well DTG that seems to be a very good plan let me ask you how can we get the GSs? I guess run scients in cap after 1st GE (can he bulb gunpowder so we can lib chemistry?) and in the 2nd city working a citizen until we get the library up? My thoughts on the Spiral Minet strategy is expand very fast only building the cheap temple and a rax in each city initially and use the 2gold from each city to fund our expansion so we don't go broke. The build order in each city generally will be culture for 2 turns to pop borders, worker for a few turns then 1 whip with the overflow completing the temple. If the city has enough resources and trees, it can 2 whip a settler on the 2nd whip cycle. Maybe that is a suboptimal strategy if we actually get Ghandi and can rush Communism. Better review what Dreylin/OT4E did. I think you can build the AP for the hammers but cannot use resolutions. And we definitely want to skip PP if rushing Communism.