RB PBEM #1 - Mehmed (SPOILERS!)

[Dreylin]

Hi,
ok, thanks. Will do.

I am looking forward to discuss the finer details after the game ends.

Regards
mh

Hmmm, after this exchange I feel a lot less bothered by the taunting; I guess it helps to know it's nothing personal.

[Dreylin]

t194 - Golden Age ends, and Culture time begins.

Mass Media completed; Satellites, Plastics, Fission & Refrigeration are my options. There's a good chance I won't finish any of them, but I'll choose Refrigeration as it will offer Supermarkets for added health. Would currently be 5t at break-even (60%).

Log says - yep, Fort destroyed but the Spy was caught and the planes are safely relocated to Mecca. Golly, Ruff has donated an another 4 Fighters ... seems like I need to decommission some of my Air Force, now that I've done the same with my Navy.

So Culture is dialed up to 60%, and it looks like Istanbul won't need any additional help to go Legendary - due in 30t. Ankara is currently due in 57t, and Izmir in 150t ... so still some way to go. Eiffel is due in 2t to give a further boost from Broadcast Towers so we'll reassess further at that point, but it's clear that Izmir is going to take the most work, so we'll concentrate on getting our additional religions in there first.

27 Fighters on the payroll ... cut that back down to 20; 15 on Carriers, 3 in Najran, on on the main island to de-fog the East coast, and a final on lurking around in Mecca ready to lift into the new city due to be founded near the ruin of Aryan. I also delete a couple of Bombers to bring that total down to 13.


Religious spread for the turn: Hinduism to Ankara & Izmir, but Taoism fails to spread to Izmir.

Corporation spread: CreCon into Izmir for 85g ... Legendary now reduced to less than 100t - well it's a start!

[Dreylin]

t195 - buy myself a WoodyIII Infantry.

Wooo, catch three Spies in various places, but mh does successfully run the counterespionage mission.

He also slips in 4Fighter attacks to take out 2Villages & Hamlets at Medina; all successfully dodge the SAM set up in the area. <sigh> Aerial combat hates me.

I take out what improvements are within range, bomb down Florence and the units inside as much as possible, and then with most of my Carrier-based Fighters still available I decide to take down the defenses at Aachen - I lose a Fighter to the one SAM stationed there, but take it down from 80% to 0%.


No religious spread this turn, but I put CreCon into Istanbul - now 25t from Legendary.

Another mixture of units, Missionaries & Temples dialed up; Eiffel will complete at EOT, so I'll run a Culture analysis next turn to see where things sit.

[Dreylin]

Discussion & dickering with Ruff about resource trades:

Dreylin,

I canceled our oil back and forth trades this turn. I expect to finish Sooooo next turn so we should look at the trades that we have ...

From me to you ...
Spices
Corn
Incense

From you to me ...
Hit Singles
Hit Musicals
Rice (I have a local copy)
Crab (I don't have a local copy but I will shortly have a 2nd fish)
Gold (I have a local copy)
Sheep (I do not have a local copy, but I will shortly have 2 deer)
Coal x 3 (I have a local copy)
Wheat (I don't have a local copy, but I should have 2 shortly)

This is my expectations:
- My trades to you stand
- both Hit trades stand
- you cancel Gold, Rice, Coal x 3 - hey, don't feel that you have to
- Crab stands for the moment, but we trade crab for 2nd fish when it comes online
- Sheep stands for the moment, but we trade sheep for deer when deer comes online
- Wheat trade stands for the moment, cancel when my copy comes online
- We can discuss 2nd Wheat if you are interested

As usual, this is up for discussion.

Cheers,

Ruff

Ruff,

That all sounds fine. Do you want me to cancel them when I play my turn, or will you do it next turn once you're sure sooooo is gone. I will cancel the Rice deal regardless, since you already have one going.

Not sure what the second Wheat would do for me, but if you had a second Rice available I might be interested ... say for a Coal?

Last turn I noticed a half-dozen Tanks about to cross over next to Edirne; do you have an ETA yet on the rest of my order?

Dreylin.

Dreylin,

Can you cancel them in 2 turns once I have killed Sooooo? If we are putting any back in place, please send them through on that turn too. That way, I don't lose resources waiting for you to accept my deal.

I sent you 10 tanks and asked for 800g. The other 2 are in the North dealing with Sooooo (I won't use them in the battle unless I have to) and will then send them to you for the other 200g.

Ruff

Ruff,

Well there's two types of trade going on here, right?

1) missing resources (Wheat, Crab & Sheep)

2) corporation resources (Coal & Gold)

In the case of #1, the resources (or their trade replacement) will come online after the end of your turn so I would be happy to cancel the gift and then request the trade ... or even just skip the cancelling step and request a gift of the relevant resource. i.e. once I see you have Deer available, rather than cancel the Sheep and request a Sheep-Deer trade, I would just request a Deer gift. Ditto for the Crab/Fish, and when I notice Wheat in your screen I can just cancel that deal.

The situation with #2 is different though; these are duplicate resources which benefit only you because of Mining Inc. My understanding of the DeTOG dissolution agreement was that these would be cancelled upon the death of sooooo. I don't know, maybe I'm quibbling about details, but doesn't that mean the turn you defeat him, and not the turn after?

Dreylin.

Dreylin,

Yeah - you are right re #2. I'll cancel them after I kill Sooooo.

Ruff

Excellent; I didn't want to be too pushy about it, but I also don't want to be supplying him with additional hammers for longer than necessary....

[Dreylin]

t196 - date increment change from 5 to 2yrs, now 1852AD.

10Tanks from Ruff ... 800g in return, and I cancel the Rice gift as discussed.

mh has been sending in his Fighters at Medina again - SAM intercepted the C5 for 50% damage, but the Farm & 2Cottages are destroyed. Unfortunately that's one of my two Wheat and the other is being gifted to Ruff for now; so I need to reconnect it this turn for health reasons. I bring in a second SAM, and now that his C5 is injured, I'll set some of my stronger Fighters to Intercept in the area.

It also looks like he's started building Guided Missles; there's already 3 of them dotted around and there's likely to be more (& probably Bombers) before too long so I should look to start advancing soon.

So what have we got?

Here's the main force assembled in Bursa Reborn:



For those keeping track, that's 26Tanks, 5Marines, 20Infantry, 15Artillery, 3MG, 3SAM, 3AT & a Jannissary ... and that doesn't count the 10Tanks just in from Ruff (in the bottom-left corner). Actually a couple of those Tanks are injured so will be stopping for a turn or two to heal, but I have a plan for them once they're healthy again.

Of course I have a bunch of Paras on station at Najran:



Clearly they can't get directly next to the city, but they can jump 3NW of their current position - 2t away from the city - not a direct threat, but then they're really only there to serve as a distracion force.

Speaking of that, here's my top-secret plan:



Now because of the lay of the land, mh can't see my forces hanging out up here ... and I've been very careful to keep them out of sight on the way up there. Also, I can account for all of mh's Fighters, so know that he's not keeping an eye up here. The current location is 10tiles from Aachen, so only those forces currently in that city could attack - 4Tanks, 7Art, 2Inf & a SAM.

The plan is to found the city 1S of the current location on the hill for the added defense. It doesn mean that he can attack straight from his own territory, but any attacking force would not be able to use the forest defenses while attacking. I think I should have a sufficient force to hold the city - especially with an air-drop per turn to reinforce - and of course he'll have a bigger problem to deal with down South.


OK, lets look at the progress on the other front; Culture.

I fail to get Buddhism into Izmir, but Taoism goes in successfully ... not sure how good an idea that is since it will make getting Buddhism in there a bit harder. <shrug> I have another on the way, and I've just popped a Christian Missionary out of Mecca - the only city I have with that religion. Rather than send it directly to Ankara or Izmir though I'll put it into Kayseri; that is a more appropriate place to pump out a couple more for the key cities.

Here's the safe Legend:



Istanbul will be the last in line for any of the multipliers, and can remain devoted to Military for a while at least ... I'll probably send my workforce down to switch some the Mines to Windmills to accelerate the Culture accumulation.




Ankara is the mid-range city, but is also the only one which has Judaism. I'll push out a single Missionary to spread to a Missionary pump before building the next multiplier building.




Here's the laggard, currently running at 70t. Since it has the furthest to catch up, it is also the most vulnerable to Spy sabotage so needs to maximise its acceleration from non-vulnerable buildings ... i.e. Wonders. So the next build here will be the Hermitage, and that alone will bring the ETA down to 51t from now. Conf. Academy will follow, and then probably Hollywood in 4t as another safe building.


And here's the final player in the Culture quest:



There are actually 9 Artists here right now, and I'll be able to add another 4 from the Engineer and production tiles next turn once the National Epic is complete. That will give me 82gpp/t and then more as the city grows; my first Great Person will be due 4t from now - with a fair chance of an Artist despite existing contamination - and the next should follow after another 9t.

Looking at the timings has also made me realise that I'm unlikely to be kicking off another Golden Age this game, so I should take the GSpy out of storage and put him to use. He departs for points East and will infiltrate in Death Valley next turn to catch me up with Ruff's output at least temporarily. I should also look at investing in Security Bureaus at my key Culture cities to try and minimise potential losses.

[Dreylin]

Well I'm sure by now that all you Lurkers have seen this first message in other threads, but here it is now in mine:

Hi,
what about peace now, after I got the following from Ruff:

Nice to hear from you. Dreylin and I were involved in a tank for $ deal. Unfortunately, I am not in a position to offer you the same deal. You might question why I am doing this ... in fact, you have .
Background: Dreylin and I have signed a 'no future war' agreement so I don't see any threat to myself regarding disbanding or selling my units to him. He is planning to win via culture. I am planning to win by space. We both know this about each others approach. We also have some spying restrictions in place (emphasis on some).
As such, I need to tech almost to the end of the tree to win. To do this, I need $. Thus my willingness to sell him tanks. Sure, it gives him more resources to kill you quicker ... but to be honest, I actually see this as giving you the opportunity to generate further GG points ... based on your stellar performance over the last 20 or so rounds. I expect that he could build the tanks I am selling him in 1 or 2 turns at most so he isn't gaining that much.
Sure, I freely admit that this is freeing up some of his civ to concentrate on culture. I also admit that this might speed his war against you and let him concentrate purely on culture. However, I reject outright that this is speeding his victory. I have what I believe to be a pretty solid method of stopping any cultural victory that he might try to achieve ... you being alive or dead will have no impact on the method that I am planning to apply.
So - the upshot ... I get $ to help me win, Dreylin gets some tanks but I don't view this as helping him win. Does it mean more pain for you ... yes (sorry), but it also means more death and destruction opportunities too.

So here the general idea:
-peace between us
-I go to war against Ruff and try to prove him otherwise on "... you being alive or dead will have no impact ..."
-details to be ironed out

Let me know.

Regards
mh

So it's certainly an interesting message, and I'll get back to the implications of Ruff's key statement in a following post, but here's the reply I just sent to mh:

Hey mh,

Interesting stuff; I don't know about his "pretty solid method of stopping any cultural victory", but I do know that it makes a difference to my pursuance of victory whether you're alive or dead!

Unfortunately though, while I don't believe that the continuing agreements between Ruff and myself would prevent me from signing peace with you, they do stop me from aiding you in any way with a war pursued against him, which at a minimum means ROP for your units through my territory is out. Without it could you mount an attack on him in a significant timeframe, and without a timely/effective option to pursue Ruff, are you even still interested in peace with me?

From my side, after having failed multiple times in attacking you, I still have something to prove to myself regarding my ability to wage war against an entrenched, Protective opponent; however I am well aware that by doing so I risk you effectively allying with Ruff and engaging in actions which have no effect on the war between us, but instead are designed to hinder my pursuit of game victory. If possible I would like to avoid this, though I realise that should we remain at war there is very little I would be able to offer in return.

Regards,

Dreylin II.

Now since I'm just gearing up to attack him again, I don't actually want peace with mh at this point; however I would like to avoid having him revolt me out of Free Speech (and to a lesser extent OrgRel) if at all possible. So I'm being completely up-front that I probably can't offer him a satisfying option for continued participation if he signs a peace deal with me in the hopes that we can work something out to limit our Spying actions.

(Sadly, since he doesn't have Liberalism, I can't revolt him into Free Speech ... otherwise I already would have. If we do continue our war without restrictions, I have a Spy sitting in Vienna who I'll use to push him into OrgRel to at least preserve that civic for me.)

[Dreylin]

OK, now let's take a look at Ruff's statement:

I have what I believe to be a pretty solid method of stopping any cultural victory that he might try to achieve

This really has to be a Espionage-based method (particularly given Ruff's pouring of EPs against me), so here are the options which we explicitly ruled out:

forced civic changes
forced religion changes
poisoning of wells
foment unhappiness
destroying of resource improvements

That seems to leave two possibilities:

Sabotage Building
Support City Revolt

Now sabotage building is really an introduction of a temporary delay to the culture generation ... and not a very efficient one at that since most culture doublers have resource multipliers which I don't think are reflected in the destroy cost.

So that leaves City Revolt as the most likely option. It would be EP expensive and require a large supply of Spies, but since he has lots of cities with very little left to do and you don't lose any EPs for a failed mission (which is stupid imo) it would seem to be a viable option.

So what can I do to try to prevent this?

1) ensure I have a counterespionage mission active with him at all times.
2) the next build in each of my Culture cities will be a Security Bureau.
3) Edirne (and possibly Mecca) will also gear up for Culture ... if he can just keep one or two cities revolting, then I have to be looking at pushing four and five through as best I can.
4) Ramp up EP generation against him so that he's not getting discounts based on EP spending. (This one is going to be slower and will depend most on how the war / negotiations with mh go)

[Dreylin]

Hi,

if ROP is out, and I understand if you deny it to me, I would have to ask whether soooo coastal cities are under your or Ruff's control.
If I have the chance to resettle my coastal cities and push out a handful of transports I can attack Ruff from the sea.
If all the coastline in this game held by yourself and ROP is out, then I am not interested, obviously.

Think about whether a lend & lease treaty between us would be ok under whatever agreement you have with Ruff. I am thinking carriers / transports / ets. for cash.
We should think about resource deals if possible as well.

If you are not interested, then I am undecided what to do.
For example, I can decide to instantly fall back to my most distant city, basically giving up this game for one last fight. The fastest option for me if I want out and favoring your victory.
Or I could continue to think hard each turn, how I can make your military campaign and your way to cultural victory as painful as possible. I have a pretty good idea, what I would do next in your shoes. So I can prepare for that and maybe give you one or two headaches. Also I still have plenty of EPs to swap you out of civics. But since I am also at a loss about Ruff's method to prevent a cultural victory and his eMail rubs me off the wrong way, I would consider shaking hands with you, tell war stories of old times and send my boys over to Ruff, just to make a point.

Let me know about soooo's coastal cities and we can iron out a peace deal.

Regards
mh

mh,

Here are the relevant clauses from the long-term agreement I've signed with Ruff:

* Based upon our years of history and mutual support, we both agree never to declare war on each other.
* In matters of Defense, the GaPR members shall cooperate as necessary to ensure mutual benefit and safety.
* No technology deals will be made with nations outside of GaPR.

The second clause is the key one here, and as you can see has pretty wide-ranging implications. While the "mutual benefit" bit may be technically skirtable, I think the "mutual safety" means that I'd have to come to his aid if you were to attack him and I'm certain would prevent me from supplying you with munitions. Besides, I do know that the spirit of the deal is that we would not conspire against each other militarily and at this stage of the game I feel that trying to rules-lawyer my way out of the deal betrays our past goodwill & cooperation. In retrospect the agreement greatly benefits Ruff, but that's also as much to do with my past ineptitude on the battlefield!

As for sooooo's coastal cities; I burned the Northern one, but the Southern is now in Ruff's hands.

I have a guess at how Ruff would be able to prevent my achieving a Cultural victory, and can tell you that if I'm right it's going to frustrate me far more than any of your revolting me has done. (BTW, your pushing me into Buddhism the second time - immediately before offering me a peace deal - was one of the principle reasons I didn't want to accept last time you offered...)

I (and the lurkers) would certainly be disappointed if you ran your army back to a remote sanctuary for a final all-in battle, but at the same time I would rather that than have you playing around in my civics and working against my Cultural Vistory aims. Maybe we could come to a compromise where we fight on the battlefield but not on the civics screen? I think that would be my favoured option as I have another attack in the works and it wouldn't be too long before you get to embarrass my army once again.

Or maybe now that all my Generals are dead, they might finally be able to break through!

Cheers,

Dreylin II.

I think both these messages are pretty straightforward; mh would like to change the dynamic of the game, but I think the GaPR deal really prevents that in any significant way. I on the other hand do want another chance to attack but don't really have anything else I can offer as incentive to stop him from going crazy with my civics.

Actually, I do have one idea which is pretty extreme, but I may be willing to float as a last resort: he stays out of my game-victory conflict with Ruff (i.e. no civics switching or targetting cultural infrastructure), and Ruff stays out of our military conflict (i.e. I delete the Tanks that Ruff has gifted me and do not purchase any more).

[Dreylin]

There is of course also option4: abandon Culture and try to beat Ruff to Space.

[Rowain]

There is of course also option4: abandon Culture and try to beat Ruff to Space.

And what good would that do . If you fear Ruff's spies then going after Space is even more risky since he can sabotage your production and destroy completed Parts (read T-Hawks epic 26 report).