DaveV talks like a pirate, me hearties!

[Mardoc]

Secondary dedlurker checking in! Partly because...well, I've always disagreed with your approach to pre-bronze defense, and never been able to tell you since I've been global lurking .

It seems to me that your typical pre-bronze defense is tuned for a single player Deity level type experience. You tend to build at least 2-3 warriors/city, and defend in the cities rather than at your borders. That's over-cautious for an Emperor game, which tends to stunt your growth and give you fewer options later on.

I would prefer if you built fewer warriors, and attacked out at the barbs instead of waiting for them to come to you.

Advantages:
More XP for your warriors. The first few battles are risky, but once you get Shock on a couple warriors, barbs cease to be much of a concern
Much less worker disruption

Cons:
A little bit swingier. You might have to emergency build a warrior here or there (although if you're fighting at the borders, you should have warning if need be)

Thanks, Joey, for the quick turnaround on the map. And for a start with some interesting decisions to make.

Thoughts on capital placement, in order of preference:

1. 3W: picks up corn (the best tile available in the starting area), wheat, silk, and reagents. Very good food, good commerce, riverside for future Deruptus. Next to a lake, though, so vulnerable to Tsunami. Can't build boats.

2. 2NE: picks up wheat, cow, fish (the latter two of which won't do me any good for a while), and two lighthouse lakes (which are a pretty meh tile in FfH). Good commerce, especially after researching hunting. On a plains hill, can build boats. Not riverside, vulnerable to Tsunami.

3. 2SW: best early commerce site, good food, not much production. On a plains hill, can build boats. Not riverside, vulnerable to Tsunami.

4. 2E: similar to my second choice, but trades dyes for gold. Dyes are typically available a lot earlier and provide nearly the same commerce. Riverside, but can't build boats and vulnerable to Tsunami..

5. 2SE: best food: four floodplains, clams, rice. All good but not great tiles. Desert hills are pretty poor tiles. Can build boats, riverside, vulnerable to Tsunami.

Can't see the screenshot due to my work firewall. Probably safe to assume you counted resources correctly, though .

Comments:
First, vulnerable to Tsunami is pretty much irrelevant for a capital. By the Priest era, you will either be fighting in your opponents' territory, fighting in no-man's land on the borders, or dying. If your opponent can get a stack to your capital uncontested, they've probably killed you regardless of whether they can use the best collateral or have to use something slightly inferior.

Best starting location depends on which civ you take. Lanun want to go 2NE or 2SE; cove-lakes are much much stronger than lighthouse lakes, after all . If you end up with the Kurios, then you have to pick based on totally different criteria yet.

*Tentative* picks, awaiting input from my dedlurker:

1. Rhoanna: always strong, poor target for aggression. Starts with Agriculture, which would be great on this map.

2. Perpentach: I like the Balseraphs, and I think Perp is their best leader. Starts with Agriculture.

3. Auric Ulvin: Illians excel on marginal terrain, and there doesn't seem to be much here. Still a strong leader and civ. Starts with Exploration.

4. Cardith Lorda: Again, a strong leader of a strong civ. I suck at great people, so PHI is a bad trait to have. Cardith gets a lot better if the map size is Large or Huge, and worse if it's small. Starts with Agriculture.

5. Hannah the Irin: apparently the Lanun are pretty good. Who knew? Starts with Seafaring and Exploration.

6. Valledia the Even: the Amurites are always too slow to develop. Maybe a big game is what they need to come into their own. Or maybe they just get eaten first. Starts with Ancient Chants.

7. Faeryl Viconia: high mobility raider summons could wreck someone's game, but the elves are famously slow to develop. Starts with Agriculture.

Agriculture is the key, aside from traits. Three west is IMO the best site, two agriculture resuources, two calender resources and three hills, all techs you want quick.

Generally agree here. Early tech is so annoying that

In my opinion what you want is a quick start with a dominating early unit that can scale. Early combat in the EitB PBEMs is generally far more rewarding than in BtS, even if you are only sniping a city to protect your borders, but the quicker you can get your big units out on the field the better in these games.

Mostly agree, with a couple caveats. Quick start is much more important than UU. You can get plenty of work done with axes or horsemen if you're first to them. Also - pick someone who can keep expanding, and a smidge later game focused than normal. Eight players, Large map, those both suggest the game won't be decided quite as rapidly as usual - although starting off with a conquest certainly wouldn't hurt.

If you're going Hippus wouldn't Tasunke be the better choice, I know you're letting go of the economic traits, but raider horses are terrifying and virtually undefendable agaisnt.

Disagree. The key to being unstoppable is having the bigger/earlier army. I'd much rather face 3 raider horsemen than 6 non-raider horses. Expansive, on the other hand, will be key on a Large map - fill up your section first, then be able to keep planting cities in land you take.

I don't know that I'd rate the Hippus absolutely first, though, at least not based on pure power. If you're rating them for fun, obviously that comes first, though.

I don't like Cardith, the Kurios take a lot of growing really shine, and while they have strong units up the path, they don't always have enough grease to make them.

I'm confused. I dislike Cardith for the exact opposite reason here I think they are awesome out of the gate, should be able to get an early tech lead and kill...and then being limited to four cities will cripple them before they can push all the way to an actual win. Possible exception: if you can swap to the Mercurians once you have a tech lead and a couple good sharable wonders. I'm confused at the current state of the mod - is that actually possible? It used to be.

I love playing Auric, getting out the priests early would be a big bonus, but his starting tech sucks for a compeditive game.

Auric is probably a good choice, yeah. Assuming he's still Expansive, anyway. Fast start, and then good mana/Arcane let him get work done. The Priests are much stronger as insurance than early kill, unless you have a neighbor who falls down on the job.

Lanun are Lanun, you can't argue against their strength.

Yep. I like Falamar better than Hannah, though. There's so much synergy in having Expansive with very low worker-labor and tech requirements. Cove tech pace makes it easy to take whatever worker techs you need for your non-coastal cities. I've always had my best games as Falamar. Especially in EitB - harbors and shipyards take your strong early game cities and turn them into strong late game cities, just when coves are losing momentum otherwise.

I never got a feel for playing the Svarts or the Amurites whenever I tried them. The Svarts really need priests of leaves for economy but flavour wise that religion isn't want to be where they're at, and the Amurites just scream "turtle to tower of mastery" to me, so much so that I'd say you'd nearly be pushed into that.

Agree that they should be toward the bottom of your list. Amurites are theoretically awesome, but they have too much of a target on their back, and no econ to support their awesomeness. Svart - raiders is nice, but it's much more fun to have an army that can simply kick down the front door. I liked Volanna before she was nerfed. Every time I've tried to build an elven economy, it's been too slow; you might as well be a standard aristofarm econ with a couple bonus tiles instead of an elven econ.

Brian didn't comment, but I do like Perpentach very much as well. Good economic leader, lots of bonuses, puppets for the kill. Only real caveat is that you need to be on the ball to get full use out of him.

Other civs to consider:
Calabim are always strong. I'm guessing they're off your list because you want variety?

Luchiurp are surprisingly effective, so long as you plan your military to be chariots or mages rather than golems. Golden hammers are a very very nice worldspell, mud golems get work done, and I think they have decent traits too.

Sheaim. (Averax) - honestly, Expansive is just that good. Agg Pyre Zombies will let you get your first kill; Mobius witches will get you the rest of the way. Biggest risk is tech pace with a non-good starting tech and Bar on top.

Clan. I think they've been nerfed. I don't think they've been nerfed enough. On the other hand, if you don't put them first, Ellimist will take them anyway.

Mahala of the Doviello: Expansive is awesome - but she has a number of good assist tricks as well. Super cheap melee line with the spell-upgrades and no buildings required - either this is a successful early war, or it is a vast decrease in cost of a defensive military, letting you push the snowball instead. Worldspell lets you either win a war or play shenanigans with wolf pack uber-movement rate.

[Mardoc]

Oh, my. Looked at the screenie on my phone. Two quick thoughts:

Falamar has this one in the bag. Should be able to replicate my EitB 16 game and runaway to victory. That game was super-fun. Expansive Lanun pushed me to a big lead, which in turn let me do things like my 1-turn war with the Amurites. 1-turn because I declared war, took 9? cities, and wiped Tatan out, all before he could react.

Would consider 3S, 2W instead of 2SW. More hills, same food, only miss out on the plains hill bonus city tile.

[DaveV]

Secondary dedlurker checking in! Partly because...well, I've always disagreed with your approach to pre-bronze defense, and never been able to tell you since I've been global lurking .

It seems to me that your typical pre-bronze defense is tuned for a single player Deity level type experience. You tend to build at least 2-3 warriors/city, and defend in the cities rather than at your borders. That's over-cautious for an Emperor game, which tends to stunt your growth and give you fewer options later on.

I would prefer if you built fewer warriors, and attacked out at the barbs instead of waiting for them to come to you.

Advantages:
More XP for your warriors. The first few battles are risky, but once you get Shock on a couple warriors, barbs cease to be much of a concern
Much less worker disruption

Cons:
A little bit swingier. You might have to emergency build a warrior here or there (although if you're fighting at the borders, you should have warning if need be)

Constructive criticism (or even amusing abusive criticism) is always welcome. I've been trying to build fewer warriors in the early game, since that's been a very consistent theme in the lurker thread. A few points in my own defense (heh):

Attacking out requires a few spare units, in case I lose a low-odds attack. Keeping a thin garrison almost requires playing defense against the barbs and risking some pillaging. I probably need to play some practice games at Emperor to get a feel for the minimum number of defenders. Extending the defense out to border chokepoints is a good idea, if possible.

Other civs to consider:
Calabim are always strong. I'm guessing they're off your list because you want variety?

Luchiurp are surprisingly effective, so long as you plan your military to be chariots or mages rather than golems. Golden hammers are a very very nice worldspell, mud golems get work done, and I think they have decent traits too.

Sheaim. (Averax) - honestly, Expansive is just that good. Agg Pyre Zombies will let you get your first kill; Mobius witches will get you the rest of the way. Biggest risk is tech pace with a non-good starting tech and Bar on top.

Clan. I think they've been nerfed. I don't think they've been nerfed enough. On the other hand, if you don't put them first, Ellimist will take them anyway.

Mahala of the Doviello: Expansive is awesome - but she has a number of good assist tricks as well. Super cheap melee line with the spell-upgrades and no buildings required - either this is a successful early war, or it is a vast decrease in cost of a defensive military, letting you push the snowball instead. Worldspell lets you either win a war or play shenanigans with wolf pack uber-movement rate.

Calabim have been hit very hard with the nerf bat in 12.1. It's a case of the pendulum swinging from overpowered to overnerfed, in my opinion.

Luchuirp do indeed have a strong early game, and lots of interesting options.

I do like Averax, although it's always tough to play without any economic traits.

The Clan are good but not great in my hands. It takes a lot of skill and practice to play them well, I think.

Mahala is another good suggestion. No starting tech is a pretty substantial handicap, but she is one of the best military leaders.

[DaveV]

Would consider 3S, 2W instead of 2SW. More hills, same food, only miss out on the plains hill bonus city tile.

Can't be settled on the first turn, though. 2SW gives up the clams but gains a plains hill plant and access to the lake.

[DaveV]

Revised revised tentative pick list:

1. Falamar
2. Perpentach
3. Rhoanna
4. Averax
5. Beeri
6. Auric
7. Mahala
8. Cardith

[Mardoc]

A few points in my own defense (heh):
Attacking out requires a few spare units, in case I lose a low-odds attack. Keeping a thin garrison almost requires playing defense against the barbs and risking some pillaging. I probably need to play some practice games at Emperor to get a feel for the minimum number of defenders. Extending the defense out to border chokepoints is a good idea, if possible.

Yes, initially. Not nearly as much once you get some promotions. Part of why this works is that it's hard to come up with non-warrior builds in the very first growth from size 1 to size settler-producer. That gives you a temporary surplus, which can be used to get the XP for Shock, usually. Then you just need backup warriors for low probability shock losses.

Two other factors that matter in MP: Lairs have been disabled. Orc warriors/goblins are a lot easier to handle than lizardmen or poison goblins.
Also, human opponents tend to do more expanding and more fog busting, knocking down the barb count.

Anyway, if you've already been cutting warriors since I stopped lurking you, you might be most of the way to what I'd recommend. Definitely not suggesting you go to none.

Calabim have been hit very hard with the nerf bat in 12.1. It's a case of the pendulum swinging from overpowered to overnerfed, in my opinion.

Ah, ok. Haven't played 12.1.

Luchuirp do indeed have a strong early game, and lots of interesting options.

To some extent, the most important factor is what you enjoy, honestly. As long as you're not trying the Ljo or Khazad, the most relevant factor is engagement .

I do like Averax, although it's always tough to play without any economic traits.

You don't consider Expansive to be an economic trait? He got much better when he swapped Cre for Exp, in my opinion.

Barb would make the early warrior argument moot, too .

The Clan are good but not great in my hands. It takes a lot of skill and practice to play them well, I think.

Fair enough. I think my perspective on them might be skewed a smidge by the duels and advanced start games I've played with them. And the teamer.

Mahala is another good suggestion. No starting tech is a pretty substantial handicap, but she is one of the best military leaders.

Yeah, true. My most fun with her was in a duel that started with advanced era, which ignored that handicap. But what I liked most about her was that Lucian + WS + cheap easy melee upgrades made her the only FFH leader I'm comfortable running with a paper-thin military through the mid-game, because you can actually react after someone declares war.

Can't be settled on the first turn, though. 2SW gives up the clams but gains a plains hill plant and access to the lake.

Not sure that access to the lake is important; either you're Lanun and should have gone north, or you're not and don't really want a lake anyway.

First turn is important, I admit. Plains hill - I keep waffling on whether the extra hammer immediately is worth more than the potential long term hammers. I suppose on balance the extra turn is worth whatever difference there is between the sites.

[Brian Shanahan]

I don't like Cardith, the Kurios take a lot of growing really shine, and while they have strong units up the path, they don't always have enough grease to make them.

I'm confused. I dislike Cardith for the exact opposite reason here I think they are awesome out of the gate, should be able to get an early tech lead and kill...and then being limited to four cities will cripple them before they can push all the way to an actual win. Possible exception: if you can swap to the Mercurians once you have a tech lead and a couple good sharable wonders. I'm confused at the current state of the mod - is that actually possible? It used to be.

That's actually what I meant. In the early go they're good, but later on when everybody else has 10-15 cities (or more) you're still stuck on 3,4,5 depending on map size. Hence my lack of grease comment.

Brian didn't comment, but I do like Perpentach very much as well. Good economic leader, lots of bonuses, puppets for the kill. Only real caveat is that you need to be on the ball to get full use out of him.

I didn't comment because I still have nightmares about the game that should not be named. Though as the last original player left standing, I still claim moral victory

[Mardoc]

I didn't comment because I still have nightmares about the game that should not be named. Though as the last original player left standing, I still claim moral victory

You mean the one between 6 and 8?

[GermanJoey]

Here's your sim for EITB PBEM XLVIII:

http://media.rhizzone.net/civ/eitbpbem.d...wordWBSave

You currently have a random leader set, but it is very easy to change:

1.) Put the save in your saves/Worldbuilder directory

2.) Open Windows Explorer, and go to your saves/Worldbuilder directory. Sort by date modified.

3.) Open Notepad (or your favorite text editor).

4.) Open EITB

5.) Go to Single Player -> Custom Game. Set number of players to 2, the difficulty to emperor, and select the leader you want. Other settings will not matter.

6.) Once the game loads, open the worldbuilder. Click on save, and choose a name like "eitb_simset.CivBeyondSwordWBSave" or whatever. Don't close the worldbuilder.

7.) Go back to windows explorer. Drag eitb_simset.CivBeyondSwordWBSave into notepad.

8.) Press Ctrl-F, and search for "BeginPlayer" (with no quotes). Copy from BeginPlayer to EndPlayer, like this.

9.) Now drag your sim file into notepad. Again find BeginPlayer and select to EndPlayer. This time, paste and save.

10.) Going back to the worldbuilder, select Load and choose your sim file.

11.) Once the game loads, go into the worldbuilder and set the correct starting tech for your civ. Alternatively, you can set it in notepad by doing a similar procedure as above but with BeginTeam/EndTeam.

Let me know if you run into any problems!

[Brian Shanahan]

I didn't comment because I still have nightmares about the game that should not be named. Though as the last original player left standing, I still claim moral victory

You mean the one between 6 and 8?

There is no number between 6 and 8!