Pitboss 35 IT and Tech Issues Thread

[scooter]

I'm a little surprised that there are people that think using this in games is standard. Maybe it is, and that's why I never win anything.

More seriously, as a community I don't think we've ever really talked about whether exploiting this bug in games is kosher or not, so people probably have different assumptions. My opinion on the matter is the same as REM's, but I guess if we want to explicitly allow it here, I don't have a big problem with that. All I really care about is that we're on the same page. Definitely not too interested in modding the thing out, though.

[ReallyEvilMuffin]

I'm a little surprised that there are people that think using this in games is standard. Maybe it is, and that's why I never win anything.

More seriously, as a community I don't think we've ever really talked about whether exploiting this bug in games is kosher or not, so people probably have different assumptions. My opinion on the matter is the same as REM's, but I guess if we want to explicitly allow it here, I don't have a big problem with that. All I really care about is that we're on the same page. Definitely not too interested in modding the thing out, though.

I thought you'd be the same

It does reduce settling dilemmas especially rolling onto food hammer units at the start. But my main concern is quickly being able to pop to third ring borders with no penalty - this would have stymied the drey4e attacks in 33 with quick third borders...


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[WarriorKnight]

Well because I wouldn't want to use a bug exploit. Usually a simple honour agreement is good enough. If you don't trust your other players to not use the culture bug then do you not trust them to not read others threads? It's a slippery slope.

To set the record straight, I'm not concerned about other players abusing the culture bug if it is banned. I mainly brought that up because that was the primary concern Alhazard stated. My own reservations stems from my other point, that it doesn't break game balance. I will refrain from commenting further because scooter is 100% correct that we haven't really discussed this as a community yet and this isn't really the place to do it either.

While I am adamant about not including a bug fix in the mod, I am open to the possibility of banning the culture bug. If another player feels strongly enough about it to propose a ban (and by all means, feel free to do so. Now that the snakepick is over I'm a player in the game and no longer running it as sponsor/dictator), then I will agree to it.

[GermanJoey]

Well because I wouldn't want to use a bug exploit. Usually a simple honour agreement is good enough. If you don't trust your other players to not use the culture bug then do you not trust them to not read others threads? It's a slippery slope.

To set the record straight, I'm not concerned about other players abusing the culture bug if it is banned. I mainly brought that up because that was the primary concern Alhazard stated. My own reservations stems from my other point, that it doesn't break game balance. I will refrain from commenting further because scooter is 100% correct that we haven't really discussed this as a community yet and this isn't really the place to do it either.

While I am adamant about not including a bug fix in the mod, I am open to the possibility of banning the culture bug. If another player feels strongly enough about it to propose a ban (and by all means, feel free to do so. Now that the snakepick is over I'm a player in the game and no longer running it as sponsor/dictator), then I will agree to it.

Why would you feel adamant about not including a bug fix in the mod?

And you've already had so many demands for this game's setup...

edit: and as far as discussion in the community goes, practically every mod I've ever heard of that makes balance changes, including the two commonly used for MP games on this site, fix the culture bug. It's pretty surprising to hear you that explicitly want it left in.

[Alhazard]

If the majority want to ban the culture bug, I will abide also but I have to point out that the game breakingness of the culture bug is way way smaller than the liberalism bug (I had to google it to find out what it is.)

[WarriorKnight]

Why would you feel adamant about not including a bug fix in the mod?

To draw the line somewhere. If we mod out the culture bug, why stop there? Nukes, Blockades, Spy Missions and Aerial bombardment on improvements are all banned as well, should we mod them out too? Also I can't think of any reason why Huts, Events, Vassal States and Diplo Victory should be enabled in any RB game, so they could probably be modded out as well. Do you see where I am going with this? Where is the line between 3.19 and another RtR?

(Global Warming is the exception, not the precedent because it is impossible to turn off).

And you've already had so many demands for this game's setup...

sigh...

Look, I am trying to run this game as smoothly as I possibly can by trying to take everything into account before we begin. Though apparently it isn't good enough for some people.

On an completely unrelated note, the position for Game Admin is still very much open.

If the majority want to ban the culture bug, I will abide also but I have to point out that the game breakingness of the culture bug is way way smaller than the liberalism bug (I had to google it to find out what it is.)

+1

Since plako has already stated his opinion for rules/settings here: (speak up plako if this is incorrect)

I'll just play. You can decide settings and rules.

Then we only need mackoti to chime in to agree to ban the culture bug (I assume reading scooter and REM's posts that they prefer a ban as well).

[GermanJoey]

Why would you feel adamant about not including a bug fix in the mod?

To draw the line somewhere. If we mod out the culture bug, why stop there? Nukes, Blockades, Spy Missions and Aerial bombardment on improvements are all banned as well, should we mod them out too? Also I can't think of any reason why Huts, Events, Vassal States and Diplo Victory should be enabled in any RB game, so they could probably be modded out as well. Do you see where I am going with this?

I actually don't. What is the difference to you, if you're planning to follow the rules (that you yourself are making up!), as to whether something is modded out or banned? You're using a mod made specifically just for this game anyways, to remove a random religion, so the reasoning of BTS purity or whatever doesn't make sense here. One important difference between Nukes, Blockades, Spy Missions, and Aerial Bombardment is that if someone does use them, the other players can tell. On the other hand, the culture bug, as Alhazard points out, it is completely impossible to detect. You will never know if someone uses it unless they tell you, and all that's holding it back is the honor system. Thus, if you decide to ban it, then why not enforce that with the mod you're already planning to use?

[WarriorKnight]

I actually don't. What is the difference to you, if you're planning to follow the rules (that you yourself are making up!), as to whether something is modded out or banned?

Only the ease of implementing that change into the mod, and the willingness of someone to do so. To be fair, El Grillo has not commented on the ease of removing the culture bug so I cannot say whether it is easy to implement or not.

You're using a mod made specifically just for this game anyways, to remove a random religion, so the reasoning of BTS purity or whatever doesn't make sense here

The only reason we are modding in the first place is so we can go ahead with 6 players. I would prefer to scrap the mod and go ahead with 7 players, but since that is not going to happen I am determined to keep it as close as possible to the original.

One important difference between Nukes, Blockades, Spy Missions, and Aerial Bombardment is that if someone does use them, the other players can tell. On the other hand, the culture bug, as Alhazard points out, it is completely impossible to detect. You will never know if someone uses it unless they tell you, and all that's holding it back is the honor system. Thus, if you decide to ban it, then why not enforce that with the mod you're already planning to use?

As REM mentions above, if we don't trust each other to not use exploits then why should we trust them not to read each others spoiler threads? Should we introduce a forum feature that locks certain players out of specific threads in that case?

You do make some decent points, however it is clear that where you draw your line as to how far you are willing to mod the game is different from mine. There is nothing wrong with that, but as you aren't even a player in this game why do you care? You won't be devoting any significant amount of time and energy into this game for it to matter to you after we finish this discussion.

[GermanJoey]

If you don't want to use a mod at all, then, like Commodore suggested on the first page of the thread, it would be easy to absorb the 7th religion with an lurker/AI civ. You're the one who decided to request and use a custom mod. What I'm saying is that if you're already using a mod, then why not use it to patch an otherwise unenforceable and commonly patched exploit, if y'all happen to decide against using the exploit? It makes no sense to me.

By the way, there *are* forum features that lock you out of other players threads. There's a greasemonkey script that many people use that prevents you from clicking on links to other players' threads, as well as a script that will activate in spacetyrantxenu's brain that will cause him to send you a flaming PM when the server detects your account or ip accessing another player's thread.

[plako]

Build culture bug would be another annoying thing to micro manage and I probably wouldn't even regularily remember to use it. Therefore I vote for banning or modding it out. There are also similar bugs in build wealth/science/culture option when production automation is on. Using these should definately be banned or modded out.

If mod is used to remove bugs, I would incorporate all ToW bug fixes listed here
http://www.realmsbeyond.net/forums/showt...p?tid=6632