Dreylin goes big or goes home [spoilers]

[Dreylin]

t0 (v1) -

Settlervision:


Aha, so a Galley to get to the Marble may not be useless after that. And more Pigs! Mmmmmm, bacon.

Planted, Worker queued up, Scout going NW & Warrior straight to Cap.

password is (and will be):

donkey

Still mulling naming scheme. I know nothing about horses, but since the Olympics just finished, I was thinking I could use past Equestrianism champions (the Horses, of course) as a potential. Or maybe I'll finally fall back on an Oil Industry theme.

[Dreylin]

t2 (turns out last turn was t2 ... at least according to the save numbering) -

Nothing of interest. No new visibility from the Scout, Warrior is in the Cap.

Looks at the demographics: at least one person settled with even more coast - if we assume it's even roughly mirrored starts, then my money would be on Dave to the NE ... although I wouldn't have made Bob' decision to settle with no water. (Maybe 1E of my spot to get the Oasis 1st-ring could work?)

I might try to track score points for techs, but no guarantees. I do need to sim whether or not to go straight to Settler after the Worker & 3Warriors, or add a second Worker in first. Also the tech order after Calendar. Maybe tomorrow....

[Dreylin]

t3 -

Touching the edges of the unexplored:


After EoT for the border pop.

[Dreylin]

t4 -

Some more resources appear:

[Dreylin]

So let's talk tech for a while, and since we're doing so I'll post this here for reference (spoilered for size):

That's the version that Q grabbed for the Strategy Articles thread, but I also updated it for the '43 tech costs. (Confirming the relationship between that game's costs and this was when I spotted the version issue.)

Anyway, I couldn't be bothered to go through the file again and update all the tech costs, so you get the old version with a modifier and for ease of viewing/discussion I've zoomed in on the most important area for the early game discussion:


This is where we get our Tile Improvements to start working the land, and wow is it going to be expensive! Let's take a look at what our unadjusted Beakers will get us:

Agriculture (known):
Farms - Corn (x2), Rice, Wheat x2, Riverside

Calendar (~144):
Plantations - Incense*, Silks, Dyes, Reagents*, (Sugar)

Animal Husbandry (~162):
Pastures - Pigs (x2), Cows, Sheep (x2), (reveals) Horses*

Fishing (~144 + ~85 for Exploration):
Fishing Boats - Fish, Clams, Crabs
Work Coast

Hunting (~270 + ~85 for Exploration):
Camps - Deer, Furs

Mining (~180 + ~128 for Crafting):
Mines - Gold, (reveals) Copper*, Hills
Chops

Just listing resources in sight, or in brackets if revealed since starting screenshot. * indicates the Resource does not become active until a later tech.

Yes, I've ignored the Quarry, but I'll need Sailing to get to that. Workshops will be pretty valuable later, but the expense to reach them at this point is not justified. I actually think that this is a start / game that will favour a Cottage economy over an AristoFarm-driven one, but again that is a way off after we're through the early game rush. Here it looks like the map is lush enough that we can concentrate on improving and working the Resource tiles in the early game and it doesn't feel like there will be a gap to put down extra Farms early.

So looking at the payoffs, you can see that Hunting gives very little for a high cost. Animal Husbandry gives a high payoff in terms of # of tiles to improve, but the majority of those tiles are for second-ring cities so is lower priority overall - I'll probably try to have it complete around when the NE city is settling at the Cows. Fishing can be delayed for similar reasons. Mining is expensive since Crafting is practically useless (no Wine), but unleashes the Hammer potential of the map with Mines & chops.

Here's another big difference with BTS: the value of the hammer tiles. In BTS, Food is king because Slavery is early and efficient. On Erebus, Slavery is much further away (past non-Worker techs) and much less efficient without a 50% Granary, so there needs to be a much better balance between Food and Hammers, and that means Mines.

Here I'm expecting my tech path will go roughly: Calendar-Crafting-Mining-Exploration-Animal Husbandry-??? However, when I ran the sims earlier I found myself hurt by lack of early city connections and not really having Worker turns available to chop/mine immediately upon discovering Mining anyway, so I am thinking about Exploration before Crafting - which would also let me see the Happiness benefit from the Silks earlier.

I also need to go back and test whether or not to put out a second Worker before building a Settler to speed the set-up of the second city. # of Warriors to grow on will somewhat depend on Barb activity; I ran with building 3 because it matched with the growth curve straight to Settler at size 5, but altering that with an earlier Worker build may change how that shakes out.


Finally, some additional dotmap thoughts since version B:

The Blue dot to the North, which I've been thinking of as my second city, may well end up moving to the riverside 1S of the Deer. I hadn't realised earlier that the starting tile was a hill; this spot gets 3 hills first-ring and the starting one from the Capital's 3rd ring borders, plus a fifth after borders pop. It's inland and riverside for health and easy trade connections and has potential to be a monster production spot.

Conversely, the city to the East is likely to be the Commerce spot and so long-term needs to be on Pink to enable Deruptus. Doing that adds the Oasis, Furs and an extra FP & Grass riverside Cottage to the eventually workable tiles, however pushing the Gold to 2nd-ring hits the immediate ROI and also increases the priority to get a Culture source to pop borders. However, since the Cap is ineligible for Deruptus, I think I need to plan around it and this is probably the best spot (although the NW outside the pod also has potential).

Anyway, that's a (murky) window into my current thinking. Questions welcome.

[Dreylin]

t6 -

Scouting shot:


Swinging around to the South, hoping to meet back up with the Capital.

Note that DaveV has grown to size 2 - no Worker first for Lanun, as expected.

[Dreylin]

t8 -

Well, I'm not going to be able to circle around here yet:

[Dreylin]

t9 -

Well well well, what have we here:


I spy someone else's pod, shall we take a peek and see whose it is?

Note from score, Aurorarcher is the first to complete a tech (likely Agr) while Jalepeno has also grown to size 2 since Luchuirp Workers are not foodhammer units.

Things I have learned so far from simming:

1) No point working the Oasis over the Corn to finish Calendar ASAP, since I don't want to improve the Silks second anyway ... they suck compared to moving straight to the Rice.

2) If I had gone Exploration first, I could have built at least 2 roads with "free" Worker turns.

3) Having missed that boat, I think it's probably correct to skip Exploration and go straight to Crafting-Mining after Calendar; cities 2 & 3 will come fairly quickly after each other and connect along the River, while even putting out a second Worker, they have plenty to be getting on with just improving Resources.*

*Some testing till required.

[Sarmatian]

As your official dedlurker, I think it falls to me to say a few words. I've known Dreylin since he was a little nipper, and he was always a... No, wait. That's my best man speech. Scrap that, here it goes:

Ok. Let's see how my basic understanding of the game works. Our opponents are:

Dreylin - Rhoanna (Fin/Exp) of the Hippus
Dave - Falamar (Exp/Cha) of the Lanun
TBS - Arendel (Cre/Spi) of the Ljosalfar
Bob - Averax the Cambion (Agg/Exp/Bar) of the Sheaim
Auroarcher - Varn Gosam (Spi/Cre*) of the Malakim
Qgqqqqq - Thessalonica (Ind/Spi) of the Elohim
Ellimist - Perpentach (Arc/Cha/Cre/Ins) of the Balseraphs
jalepeno - Garrim Gyr (Fin/Arc) of Luchuirp

We've probably got the second strongest pick, while Dave with Lanun is the strongest. I'm not sure about specific player skill, I only remember from what I've read of previous games that Elimist won a bunch of games, so he's dangerous regardless of civ choice.

Rhoanna allows us flexibility, we can expand peacefully or rush potential targets, even though I might have preferred Tasunke. If you go with horselords, you might as well play to their strengths. It's more of a gamble, and Raiders isn't nearly as useful as it is against AI, as human players are much more careful about their road placing, so you can't really abuse Commando.

We should focus on acquiring the strongest position by mid game, because that's when some other players can get ahead, especially Ljos and Lanun, if they're not kept in check. We've got advantage early and mid game.

We shouldn't fear rushes against us, as we have much better rush potential than any other civ.

So, about our opponents civs:

1) Dave Lanun - if allowed space, will out tech everybody, no doubt about that. Plenty of water for coves. With 8 opponents, people will be very careful about going to war, so limited turtling might even work. Probably the strongest opponent, if near us, a rush should be considered

2) TBS Ljos - late bloomers (pun intended). Their world spell makes them very resistant to rushing, and Gilden is tough nut to crack on the defensive, and useful for taking barb cities. They've generally performed poorly in most games I've read about so I wouldn't worry about them too much. Sure, they've got potential to grow tallest of all, but all other players should also be aware of that. If any of their neighbours sense weakness at any point, they might move for the kill.

3) Bob Sheaim - Averax is interesting pick, and PZ rush is always a threat. With our 4 move units, we should be able to outrun his PZ and pick our battles. Bob certainly knows that and will direct his PZ rush (if it happens) against a weaker civ, even if we end up neighbours.

4) Auroarcher Malakim - Varn is certainly on of the strongest leaders in the game. If the starts are mirrored, and that Marble seems to indicate they are, he has a great position for a capital with oasis and floodplains. Malakim are weakest early in the game, while there's lack of good disciple units. Potential rush candidate if close

5) Q Elohim - From my experience, Elohim are just generally bad. They don't have any particular strengths, and every single thing they can do, some other Civ can do better. Their WS is ok against AI. Against humans, there isn't really enough time to change the overall force ratio during the time it runs out, so it usually just means they've postponed their defeat for some time.

6) Elimist Balseraph - unpredictable leader in the hands of one of the best players here. I've never played Balseraph in SP (they just don't appeal to me), so other than professing my utter hate for AI Loki, I can't offer anything here.

7) Jalapeno Luchuirp - one of my favourite Civs but usually sub par in MP. Their golems are insanely slow and expensive. It is far more likely that they will go OO (especially with this much water) to supplement their melee line, than use golems ever. If Jalapeno goes for golems, I expect gargoyles which go very well with his 2 move adepts who will repair them on the fly.

I spy someone else's pod, shall we take a peek and see whose it is?

Definitely. We need to see who's our neighbours. Also, I expect everyone hoped to start away from us, so it's nice to think that we will ruin someone's day at least a little.

[Dreylin]

Hey Sarmatian, good to have you along for the ride, and thanks for taking a look at civ reviews. I can add a bit on the players I think. All of them have won games here I think, with the exception of me!

1) Dave has a reputation as a cautious player - I've watched him engaged in exploration by Culture - but he's one of the most mechanically knowledgeable here.

2) TBS could be argued to be the best player at this site; I think that's partly because he doesn't play too many games at a time so can really concentrate. I haven't seen him play a FFA EitB game, but I'd put him at the top of the "Fear" list.

3) I'd vote Bob as "most likely to lose interest and phone in the turns", but that doesn't mean he's not a strong player when he's interested.

4) Auroarcher is a very solid player with a pair of recent victories. I beat him in the Duel league (with Tasunke...), but was on the bleeding edge of losing that.

5) Qgqqqqq can be strapped for time and has recently been specialising(?) in later era games. I beat him to Form of the Titan by not many turns in both of our recent FFA matches, but that didn't help me in the end!

6) Elimist hasn't played so much recently, but as you say has the reputation from the older series of games.

7) Jalapeno is a recent arrival, but has played effectively and took the Lanun to a victory recently.