DaveV talks like a pirate, me hearties!

[DaveV]

So basically it's grow, grow, grow for a while then. Some quick turns coming up.

Yes, it will be press enter and send on the save for about 20 turns.

All that water is looking incredibly promising. Can I persuade you to use the 2nd or 3rd warrior to scout a BFC around the gold/pig area? A canal city (say, 2N of the pig) would be awesome early if there's usable food nearby. Could have a capital-built cove or two, gold/pigs in the near term. Strategically, both a canal and a chokepoint are useful things to have.

Yes, it looks as though EXP is the right trait to have.

I'm consistently low on warriors in my sims, so it will be difficult to talk me into sending one out to die in exchange for exposing a few tiles. I'm thinking of building a scout at some point for spider spotting and second-ring scouting, but I have a lot of cities to crank out before then, and the pig canal city has the disadvantage of needing a border pop to grab the food and having no hills first ring.

I agree with the goodness of canals, but the freshwater clams city, for example, has food and a hill first ring. In looking at this map, I'm actually thinking Slavery could be a useful civic at some point.

Culture will also be important to be able to generate, and OO would be the perfect answer, but I think I'll need to grab city maintenance mitigating civics first.

[Mardoc]

it will be difficult to talk me into sending one out to die in exchange for exposing a few tiles

Not necessarily a death here. As soon as barb warriors/goblins start spawning, scouting will get safer.

the pig canal city has the disadvantage of needing a border pop to grab the food and having no hills first ring.

...maybe. Depends what's in the rest of the first ring. Also, at least one cove can be first ring, which is sort-of food.

I agree with the goodness of canals, but the freshwater clams city, for example, has food and a hill first ring

.
I don't see any freshwater clams. You mean the freshwater crab? I agree that's an even better site. My only concern is that it seems too far to stretch immediately; I want a city in between.

In looking at this map, I'm actually thinking Slavery could be a useful civic at some point.

Quite possibly. The biggest trick is either dealing with the anarchy or finding the golden ages.

Culture will also be important to be able to generate, and OO would be the perfect answer, but I think I'll need to grab city maintenance mitigating civics first.

On a large map, with gold and coves, and coast as a fall-back tile? I know Expansive is powerful, but it seems unlikely we run out of commerce, of all things.

-----

Y'know, I'm definitely getting the impression I need to grab the sim and try out some of my suggestions. Either I'll get some hard evidence to argue with, or I'll see the problems that I'm glossing over. Will try to do that this upcoming weekend.

Should I start from the sim that GJ gave us? Theoretically it's worth updating a sim as you scout, but I never seem to manage to actually do that with my games. If you have, though, I might as well use it.

[DaveV]

This sim file should be up to date:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/8114...wordWBSave

[DaveV]

... and, for comparison:




6 cities, 4 workers, 9 warriors on turn 60. Just finished Calendar, ready to revolt (to City States, Nationhood, Apprenticeship, Agrarianism; reduces total expenses from 33 to 21).

[Old Harry]

I'm not so hot on eitb - is there a good reason not to move dunwich one or two tiles east?

[DaveV]

I'm not so hot on eitb

Neither am I. That configuration was not being presented as The Answer but an answer.

is there a good reason not to move dunwich one or two tiles east?

Flood plains are a pretty good tile; there's an early game civic that gives +1 f, -1 h to farms, so the farmed flood plain is about to turn into 5f 1c, better than the wet plains rice. Border pops are hard to get, and Animal Husbandry is a second column tech. All that said, canal cities are going to be really good for me, as Mardoc pointed out earlier. And I want to push to the southeast for the wine, whales, and lake tiles. Presumably there's more good stuff hidden in the fog.

[Brian Shanahan]

Just remember with barbs on you'll have to factor in at least a few galleys/triremes to keep your pirate coves safe. While losing a fishing boat will be annoying losing a fully developed pirate cove will set you back thirty turns or more. And navy barbs always pillage, unlike land ones.

[Mardoc]

6 cities, 4 workers, 9 warriors on turn 60.

Fishing, Crafting->Mining, Ancient Chants->Mysticism->Message from the Deep, Agriculture->Calendar

Still this path? I guess it can't be exactly that one, since you have Carto and not Message from the Deep

Ok, got my benchmark! Definitely not something that would be possible without Expansive, either way.

Flood plains are a pretty good tile;

Generally, yep. And if we move Dunwich east, then we either have to reshuffle more cities, or lose the 2nd ring floodplains entirely.

I do half wonder if maybe we're putting too much emphasis on food, without a civic to use it up. It's still good for building workers, though, and growing cities onto the hammer and commerce tiles.

------

I can't help but notice in your sim we have five farms, only three of which are being worked - yet the only unimproved tile being worked is a lake, so we're not hurting for tiles. Seems possibly worth pushing some other tech instead of Agri-Calendar. I guess that will be part of my sim attempts.

Just remember with barbs on you'll have to factor in at least a few galleys/triremes to keep your pirate coves safe. While losing a fishing boat will be annoying losing a fully developed pirate cove will set you back thirty turns or more. And navy barbs always pillage, unlike land ones.

Maybe. Note that DaveV's T60 picture has every tile in the northern sea defogged - as long as we can get that done before barbs spawn, they won't bother that sea, I think. At least not before spawning a city, right? Might need some naval help on later seas, but then at some point we'll need to defend them from human opponents anyway.

I wouldn't be surprised if galleys are worthwhile to save time on settler/escort/worker walking, though. Especially once we're ready to claim the opposite side of the sea.

[DaveV]

Still this path? I guess it can't be exactly that one, since you have Carto and not Message from the Deep

Fishing->Agriculture->Crafting->Mining->Calendar->Bronze Working->Ancient Chants->Education->Cartography, I believe.

...if we move Dunwich east, then we either have to reshuffle more cities, or lose the 2nd ring floodplains entirely.

Moving Dunwich to one of the plain forests between the gold and pigs allows a nice floodplain city 1W of the current Dunwich, that could give one of its floodplains to Bolans and build workboats for the southern sea.

I wouldn't be surprised if galleys are worthwhile to save time on settler/escort/worker walking, though. Especially once we're ready to claim the opposite side of the sea.

Yes, I'm expecting galley ferries to pay off well. Settling the marble island will give a nice commerce boost, and shipping settlers to outer cities will be a lot faster than walking. Another argument for some well placed canal cities.

[Brian Shanahan]

Just remember with barbs on you'll have to factor in at least a few galleys/triremes to keep your pirate coves safe. While losing a fishing boat will be annoying losing a fully developed pirate cove will set you back thirty turns or more. And navy barbs always pillage, unlike land ones.

Maybe. Note that DaveV's T60 picture has every tile in the northern sea defogged - as long as we can get that done before barbs spawn, they won't bother that sea, I think. At least not before spawning a city, right? Might need some naval help on later seas, but then at some point we'll need to defend them from human opponents anyway.

I wouldn't be surprised if galleys are worthwhile to save time on settler/escort/worker walking, though. Especially once we're ready to claim the opposite side of the sea.

The northern sea is safe by turn 60 correct, but if there are still unfogged tiles (or worse, cities) in the south, it could become hazardous. I find normally barb galleys are a headache well into the game unless I put up an early trireme net, but for the Lanun they can be a nightmare.

Galleys can be very useful as ferries too. I'd forgotten that.

Dave, medium to long term how do you see your army composition going? If OO the best route may be attack from the sea with Priests and Drowns (or their upgrades), with ships for support, and axes at home. Otherwise what do you envisage?