RB PBEM #1 - Mehmed (SPOILERS!)

[Dreylin]

And what good would that do . If you fear Ruff's spies then going after Space is even more risky since he can sabotage your production and destroy completed Parts (read T-Hawks epic 26 report).

Well, I could just give up now of course.

Obviously I'm going to have to be fighting Spies with Spies whichever route I take so will be employing those methods myself, but if he's prepared to keep one or more cities in permanent revolt then that buys him an awful lot of time to run his research and build parts. If he's effectively turned a 35t Culture win into a 75t Culture win, he can afford to build parts anywhere in his Empire ... my bet would be that he'd come up with a coordinated plan to complete all the parts on the same turn, likely using building multipliers & overflows to have them all done in a single turn - thus remove my chance to sabotage either production or completed parts before he can launch.

... except of course that parts will complete at his EOT and he wouldn't be able to launch until the start of his next turn so there would always be a window there. Hmmmmm.

[Dreylin]

Speaking of that, here's my top-secret plan:



Now because of the lay of the land, mh can't see my forces hanging out up here ... and I've been very careful to keep them out of sight on the way up there. Also, I can account for all of mh's Fighters, so know that he's not keeping an eye up here. The current location is 10tiles from Aachen, so only those forces currently in that city could attack - 4Tanks, 7Art, 2Inf & a SAM.

The plan is to found the city 1S of the current location on the hill for the added defense. It doesn mean that he can attack straight from his own territory, but any attacking force would not be able to use the forest defenses while attacking. I think I should have a sufficient force to hold the city - especially with an air-drop per turn to reinforce - and of course he'll have a bigger problem to deal with down South.

As I'm sure you all worked out before I did, founding 1S of the current location is pretty foolish. Yes the city gets more immediate defense, but since mh would be able to attack from his own territory, that means he could do it immediately next turn and also that his surviving forces would remain in his territory and on the Rail network after having attacked; this rather than having to spend a turn moving into the forest or onto the hill, exposing themselves to counter-attack, and if forced to retreat, delaying their usefulness to the rest of his defense.

Of course I should found on the ruins of Aryan instead.

[Rowain]

If he's effectively turned a 35t Culture win into a 75t Culture win, he can afford to build parts anywhere in his Empire ...

In my opinion: Had you not been so obsessed with m_h and Vienna you would already be close to victory. I mean this war last now for ~35 or so turns not to mention the preparation turns where you built your Army.
Your power was already that much higher than anybody elses before the war that you could have easily used your huge Army for a token war while running culture.
http://www.dreylin.net/civ4/RBPBEM_image089.jpg

What did you get out of this warcampaign? If you got fun and enjoyment then it's ok after all thats what we play for but a lot of your posts sounded frustrated and not funhaving so I'm really puzzled what the reasons for your actions were/are.

I would like to add that played a really great game till then.

[Dreylin]

First off you're totally right, I became obsessed with Vienna and breaking mh and I'm not sure that that isn't still the case - though now I may well be using the perception of long-term futility to drive that desire.

But that graph is from a long time ago, and is somewhat deceptive. 1660AD was the turn I discovered Physics, and also around when I got Combustion from Ruff; it was still a time when sooooo and mh were neck and neck in the tech race; significantly, it was a few turns before my amphibious assault that destroyed mh's naval power and took control of the Seas for Ottoman. There's a significant discrepancy in population between mh and myself contributing to that graph as well as a large chunk from my Navy - which has distorted the Power graphs for a long time now. Turning tech off that early certainly wasn't an option, though as you say I could have started prep-work for culture while sitting back within borders and not making offensive moves - at least after claiming the coast.

I certainly would have enjoyed the continued war if I had been anything like successful (and not played like a plonker from then until now), but you're right that it has been frustrating. Not as frustrating I'm sure as what Ruff has in store for me though....

[Dreylin]

Hi Dreylin
thanks for the open letter.
First of all, if we decide to fight on, spying activities will play a major role in the conflict and civics changes will happen. I think you are rather attached to free speech and planned religion spread will not happen if I keep you in Buddhism and Theocracy, right? Not to mention the recurring turns of anarchy you will have to endure. And since the only conceivable plan for Ruff to prevent a cultural victory, considering your treaty, must be espionage, I might as well coordinate with him. Even in a worst case, I think I have around 15 turns left to me to cause mischief.
I have lots of EPs to spend, I can do whatever I want with my slider, ie. spend it on EPs exclusively, as I don't have any tech aims if I am out in a few turns.
On top of that, every city you capture, gives me an instant 75% spy discount, so trying to revolt you through civics and religions is very cheap for me.
Spies are dead cheap to build, need no resources, etc.
And after all, spying has played a major role in some of your attacks as well. Bunker at Vienna, road cutting at Augsburg.
So asking me to fight on but not use spies is not attractive.

I am pretty sure I know what is coming for me next turn or the turn after. Let me guess: Paradrop near Augsburg, massive tank rush taking Vienna and pushing further north/north west and I am pretty sure an amphibious landing near Brandenburg (I have noticed the absence of three of your carriers, btw.), forcing me to defend on multiple fronts, basically spelling disaster for my few troops. In fact I have posted something like this like 30 turns back in my thread, and was surprised to see you coming for me in non-synchronized attacks, letting my armies defend, heal, defend, heal, and so on.

I am fine with your agreement with Ruff. In fact I can sign peace with Ruff now, if that eases your mind. However, I will plan for an eventual attack against him. If you feel that with this knowledge you are already bound by your honour to not engage in any agreement with me, this is not so attractive.

Here is what I offer:
- if you need a civic change from my spies free of anarchy, I can see what I can do.
- Aryan fish (Sushi) once I resettle (high priority) for your spare Bananas
- my spare silver for your spare gems
- immediate retreat of all spies
- peace, which should help you with your WW.
- peace with Ruff
- gold (for workers? for Medina?)

Here is what I want:
- immediate retreat of all spies
- a few workers for limited amount of time to repair around Vienna
- I just need a handful more XPs from battles with you to get my next GG. This, I really want. I already played half the turn before I spotted the tank stack and have beaten one of your units.
If you could "offer a sacrifice" say three (to be sure) of your lesser troops (Janissaries) on the borders, I can take them out and then sign peace. Something like this?
- Think about the city of Medina. It is engulfed by my culture and will be so even more, once Vienna and Prague pop their borders as I still have lots of culture in the tiles to the south and west.
- Limited RoP for workers to improve tile south of Prague.

Can't think of anything else.
Let me have your list and lets see whether we can work something out.

Maybe a chatzy chat once you have time is possible.

Regards
mh

I received this first-thing this morning and it's taken me a while to frame a reply. The ongoing chat with Rowain has helped me think about my situation from a more objective viewpoint (Thanks!) and also gave me time to come up with another idea....

mh,

Yep, you can certainly threaten to wreak all sorts of havoc on me with Spies ... although pushing me into Theocracy and Nationhood would really serve to accelerate your own demise - albeit also at my long-term expense. You've no doubt already noticed that I'm still in Buddhism despite the limitation having expired, and really there isn't any point my switching while you're still around and an enemy is there?

BTW, I never suggested banning all Spy actions, just those which are targetted to harm my cultural aspirations and actually end up benefiting my war effort - such the two civics switches mentioned above - I never expected you to agree to suspend all activities.

However, if I'm right about what Ruff is planning, then he's likely correct that it won't matter whether you're alive or dead ... infact it won't even really matter that much what civics I'm in either.

So if I'm not afraid of civics switches (or am at least resigned to them), WW is no issue in the few cities without Jails while running culture, and a far-off war between you and Ruff (if I can justify staying out of it) is unlikely to significantly impede his aims for Space; what incentive have I to not continue to prosecute this war to it's conclusion?


There is one thing you can offer me though ... a certain victory that Ruff cannot stop.

Do you want to be the Kingmaker?

Dreylin II.

Is chatzy the thing that we used for the 'Poly demogame? I am available most of the time on MSN (deleted) or on g-chat.

Of course what other victory condition is open ... Diplomatic, of course.

I don't know exactly how to translate Population into votes (I'm about to go search civfanatics for an article) but the Domination victory condition has me at 51.74% with Ruff at 34%, and the Demographics screen has me at a whopping 66% Population; either way with a bit of time for mh to grow cities (Sushi) and probably handing over most of old-Arabia, we should be able to surpass Ruff and vote for a diplo victor....

[T-hawk]

I don't know exactly how to translate Population into votes (I'm about to go search civfanatics for an article) but the Domination victory condition has me at 51.74% with Ruff at 34%, and the Demographics screen has me at a whopping 66% Population; either way with a bit of time for mh to grow cities (Sushi) and probably handing over most of old-Arabia, we should be able to surpass Ruff and vote for a diplo victor....

Ignore the Demographics population. The Domination victory condition matches up to votes. Also, if the UN has been built, the F8 "Members" screen directly shows everybody's vote counts.

[Dreylin]

Ignore the Demographics population. The Domination victory condition matches up to votes. Also, if the UN has been built, the F8 "Members" screen directly shows everybody's vote counts.

I knew about the "Members" screen, but wasn't sure about which pop figures to use before having built the UN. (I actually just checked an old SP game)

So currently Ruff is showing 34% before taking sooooo's last two cities. So if I can build UN speedily and mh pumps up his pop, it looks like we might be able to sneak in a victory....

[Dreylin]

Ruff really isn't going to like this if it goes through....

Hi,
just a short message as I am busy at work.
- My plan would be to nuke Ruff. Just one tech, one project and a GG boosted Vienna to crunch ICBMs.
- What did you have in mind? Diplo victory via UN? When are you finished with it?
- You being in Theocracy would only allow you to spread Buddhism and not all those other religions.
- My demise is not really sped up by tanks having 2XP more or drafted Infantry. It is purely governed by how quick your tanks can roll through my lands. If I have plenty of artillery and AT around I figure you will only 1move your main stack through my lands.

mh

mh,

Nukes = ouch! That would definitely prove your point to Ruff, and I know that he intensely dislikes them. I would want a guarantee though that they would not be used against me if we should end up at war later in the game - of course I would offer the same guarantee.

Yep, was thinking that we could slip a diplo victory past Ruff's Spy net, though I think we'd have to be as fast as possible to give him little chance to re-grow sooooo's cities - he's currently on 34% pop on the domination condition. I haven't started UN yet, but I may be able to have it complete in as little as 4t ... though I might push it to a less-productive/less-obvious city which might push it to 6/7t.

I guess you're probably right that the civics wouldn't really impact on your demise much, but Buddhism is actually the religion I need to spread most at the moment since my Culture cities all need it added! Anyway, it's a matter of perception and we're both arguing the "facts" in our own favour, right? 9-)

Dreylin II.

[Dreylin]

Closing on a deal:

Hi,
well, there is no guarantee that nukes will work, after all Ruff is likely to see my research and can try to counter with nukes himself (not that I care much) or SDI (bad against ICBMs).
But it would certainly require some resources from him.

The UN victory currently sits at 340/549 votes.
I have you down at 285 (votes = pop points).
I do have a meagre 55.
So we are there already. Soooo's remaining two cities will lose one pop each upon capturing.
Also a lot of Ruff's new cities are still in revolt for 2-4 turns and then unlikely to grow fast before they pop the 2nd ring.
I do have some cities at low pop count but with Granaries so can quickly build up pop points there.
Founding Aryan again using the windmills and the still netted fish will also help some.

So I guess if you are serious about this, we do have to be quick, as the vote for the SecGen has to come before as well.

The main point is: I am happy to leave this game in 10 turns with you winning a diplo win, rather than spending the next 25 turns on the ICBM plan, rather than fighting you for the next 20-25turns until I am dead. In that order.
I think I have achieved all that I could possibly get from this game.

mh

mh,

Well much as I'd still like to satisfy myself by beating you militarily, it's probably time to let that go and turn to actually winning the game. Maybe after we've finished the main game we can come back and play out the war? I would like to see if I'll finally have got it right! (or assembled enough troops that even my f-ups can't get it wrong.) 9-)

So how would you want to go about this; obviously we'll stop any further offensive actions, but maybe it's in our interests to keep in a state of war in order to mask our cooperation from Ruff for as long as possible? I guess we could also work towards a fall-back position of you building up for Nukes if it should happen that we can't pass the diplo win.

How about this:

No further offensive actions from either side despite the continued state of war. (*exception: Dreylin agrees to sacrifice units necessary for granting another GG to mh on the understanding it will not be attached to a unit.)
Spy actions will be limited to those requested by the two parties involved - e.g. civics revolts - and counterespionage missions if desired.
Dreylin will build the UN and propose a diplomatic victory at the first possible opportunity; during this period both parties will concentrate on maximising their populations.
Once the diplomatic victory proposal has been chosen, peace will be declared between the two nations - regardless of the outcome of the vote - and each will pursue their own goals (Culture, Nukes) with cooperation as possible.

Anything else you'd want to add?

Dreylin II.

[Dreylin]

I send a quick note to Ruff, since clearly the threads & game delay are telling a story....

Hey Ruff,

What did you say to mh? Seems he'd rather be at war with you than me right now!

Dreylin.