[LURKERS ONLY] Huge Lurkers Hugely Lurking the Huge PBEM

[Thoth]

I also wonder if Dave is fine with the restart because he regrets Fishing as his first tech... that choice seemed like a bad idea to me. Coves are surely awesome but I don't think you want to be working unimproved tiles for 25 turns...

Fishing first is the correct play with Dave's star. 15 turns to tech should give him enough time to hit size 4 with a garrison and an explorer/second defender. 5t later he's got the fish netted and a lake cove. I haven't looked all that closely, but I think he can only get one more cove in his cap, which should be doable by t25. That's 3 excellent tiles plus the 2nd Lake.

Worker 1st plus Ag let's him improve the comerceless wheat and farm some lakeside tiles. That a pretty weak sauce compared to fish + coves. He'll want a couple of workers before his first settler but they can wait. See Mardoc's Ffh xvi thread.

Huh... that's pretty surprising to hear. Can he really get 3 workboats out that quickly? I don't have a very good feel for FFH2 game pace anymore.

I'm looking at the start again, and I suppose he will have four 3f unimproved tiles in his BFC, that's not too bad to grow on... although he needs Fishing to work 3 of them, right? Growing to size 4 on grass forests just doesn't feel optinal to me.

edit: He really wouldn't need Agrarianism to speed up his settlers because of Exp, as the two 1/2 grass forests will essentially be 5fh tiles for him. Would grow to 2 -> work on a settler for awhile -> grow to size 4 or 5 while building workboats when Fishing is available -> finish settler be better? I guess I'll just have to watch what he does!

Quick speed foodbox is 14/15/17 iirc (it's been a few years since I've played a quick speed game). At +3 food it's 16 turns to size 4 so he won't quite be size 4 when Fishing completes. Peering at the screenshots it looks like he's got 2 forested grass hills in his bfc so 7/8 hammers per turn are easy to get. WBs are 20 hammers each.

Super early settler strikes me as a poor idea. Grow until Fishing, build 3 (4 if they can squeeze a third cove) WBs, then 2 workers and a settler (+ additional warriors as needed to allow growth) means a slightly delayed 2nd city but much stronger set up and better security against barbs. In the meantime, the extra commerce from fishing + coves will be catching up quickly on the early game techs.

In FFH XVI Mardoc had a riverside corn and a fish. Sims showed that Fishing first came out well ahead of Ag/Worker first and that netting the fish first was a stronger play than coves first.

[Thoth]

I think Thoth is right, thinking about it. A worker doesn't really make WBs any faster (since no mining) and the only good tile he'd improve is the 6 yield wheat. And I think the fur will actually take a turn of fishing from that extra commerce, making it even better.

I think it could be worth a sim...

I don't think I have the sandbox that I set up for XVI anymore, but I did run a pile of sims at the start of that game. Even with a riverside corn, Fishing 1st came out well ahead of Ag/worker 1st.

Note that this isn't true for non-Lanun civs. The extra food from water tiles makes a big difference.

[Ichabod]

Joey, did we forget to add horses to the map?

[BRickAstley]

Joey, did we forget to add horses to the map?

[GermanJoey]

Joey, did we forget to add horses to the map?

No there should be one in the starting area...... dear god let me double-check.

edit: there be horses, whew.

[GermanJoey]

Joey, did we forget to add horses to the map?

quiet you! all 8 players have horses 1NE of the silks in their starting area!

I realize now that Ichabod is probably looking at one of the players' sims, which have hidden strategic resources stripped out.

[Ichabod]

I looked at the first map you sent me through your tool and the horses were in a tile that didn't reveal them in Dave's game. But I said it more on a "lets check this" meaning, not a "we screwed up" one.

[Ichabod]

Wait. Where are Dave's horses then? They aren't 1NE of the silks...

[GermanJoey]

Uh that's a really good question. I'm looking at the map I have here and there's definitely horses in that tile...

[GermanJoey]

He went from 2T to Agriculture on T18 to saying he had AH at EOT T21, I don't see how he could possibly have AH... maybe he's just joking? Because I looked at the map again and there's definitely horses in his spot.