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Spell of Mastery casting cost

I'm wondering if the current casting cost of Spell of Mastery is high enough, considering the high amount of skill a player typically has in the endgame now.
While the cost is double of the original, skill is also double most of the time, often even triple.
I had a game where I finished by casting SoM yesterday. It took me only about 21 turns to cast it despite not spending at all on casting skill for the second half of the game and not having AEther Binding. Now, 21 turns without casting other overland spells is a lot. Yet, it's very small considering the AI has to actually take out your capital in that time, just taking cities, even if you lose 90% of them, will not do anything.

I've implemented an elevated hostility system so the AI can at least be more aggressive and send in units to the capital even if they would normally think "this is too well defended to attack with just 5 Sky Drakes" , hoping to slowly wear it down by combat spells, because waiting for a stack that is better than the 9 best units the player has at this point is unrealistic, especially if it contains all 6 of their heroes. However that isn't the only thing preventing the AI from taking the player out :
1. Diplomacy. The number of turns are random but it can take anywhere from none to as much as 5-6 turns before the AI starts the war, until then they just keep warning you about breaking the alliance. (this doesn't apply if there was no alliance, then they attack right away) This is an insignificant amount of time or would be if the spell took longer to cast.
2. Logistics and distance. While the new AI will give up committing stronger forces on defense in this situation and will use all they have to form attacking armies, it takes quite a few turns to gather them on one spot, ferry them across the ocean somehow, then make their way into the capital.
3. Other cities. Even if the capital is the highest priority for an attack, the AI has multiple armies and they will target other cities simultaneously. If they manage to conquer them, some of them will be stuck inside as garrisons. There is also no guarantee the strongest army will go to the capital, in fact as it is now allowed to attack it with anything to prevent not attacking at all, chances are it will be medicore or even outright weak. Distance also isn't a factor, while the priority of targets is weighted by it the capital has a large priority so a unit going there from the other end of the continent is possible...and if they do so, nothing else will attack the capital until they reach it, except for stacks that are no further than 5 tiles. (maybe the "no secondary attack force for a target unless it is at a distance of 5 or less" condition should be removed? I suppose if a unit had nothing else to attack then...actually no. That would mean everything moves towards a weak target if one is found, leaving the stackbuilding and garrison refilling modules with no units left to choose from. So that shouldn't be done.)
4. Move Fortress. The human player will have their fortress at a place that is hard to reach. If the map allows they might even put it on a 1 tile island where only flying stacks can enter, which do not use the normal target priority system and will not be able to bypass the "too strong to attack" limitation.

So yeah...should it cost more or not? Even if it did, the AI's chances to stop it through military force are marginal but as is, it's zero.
Of course we can also say if you got the spell first and made sure no one remaining has Spell Blast then you deserve to win and ignore this as a non-problem. Many other 4X games just declare "X wins by <condition>" without letting anyone use force to stop it ; at that point, it's just a game over screen. They should have attacked while it was being researched, there was plenty of time. (except they can't do that if there is a stable alliance...)
Another thing, the human player can push their research bar to the max. The AI cannot and even with their power advantage, if they only spend a third on research while you spend the full, you will be faster (also the AI pays 50% more for researching SoM on extreme and higher, otherwise games would end too early to enjoy). On the other hand the AI shouldn't be allowed to max research intentionally to win unless we want to see games where "oh cool I have some very rare spells now, let's start summoning and prepare a plan to deal with the enemy....hey don't win the game when I haven't even used my best spells yet, where is the fun in that!" happens. They have a low research advantage to prevent this, but their power advantage is big and they can have very large empires, often two or three times the size of the human player. If they could push all that 3-5k power/turn into research they'd finish researching it in just 50 turns.

Finally there is the other side to this. The player also needs time to gather troops, get to the AI's capital and defeat what is inside. If they only have 15 turns for the whole thing, that might not be enough, especially if they need simultaneous attacks with multiple stacks to do so.

...it's worth mentioning I don't normally win by SoM, this was the first time in a long while. I had too few books (used random generator) and had no means to take out the capitals, aside from risking an all out attack with my heroes, which is just too risky when said capitals are full of Great Wyrms, colossus and both remaining wizards have web+crack's call and disintegrate and chaos books to go with it. Now that the AI knows what Spell Save items are, and prefers to equip it on their top hero, walking into a capital using heroes with "only" 15ish resistance is no longer safe. If the hero is the illusionist, it can take out 2-3 heroes with disintegrate on turn 1. I would have tried if there was no other way but conveniently no one had spell blast and I had a resource advantage so I went for it. SoM needed testing anyway, looks like it's viable on extreme if having a large enough power advantage.

Edit : I checked my save file. At the time I won, one of the wizards still had 30k left on their SoM research, the other had 45k and two unresearched very rares (probably from books). The latter is of no concern, they were behind me in power the whole game and playing Dwarves (although they had Sage Master). The former was Theurgist and had cities of all sorts of (arcanus) races, started with barbarians, but also had only half my power for most of the game (I took away about half their cities, that's why). I guess these numbers are reasonable, I feel the AI was a bit lagging behind research but it's only extreme not impossible and the conditions were far from ideal for them (fully or partially low research races and limited space for expansion - I colonized or conquered about 60% of Myrror so my ally only had 40%, and on Arcanus I took the cities from the player there so by the time they could have had good research from nonbarbarian cities, they started losing them one at a time). I finished casting SoM in 1425 which is surprisingly early for that but I was playing Dark Elves on high (maybe even max?) power settings.
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Finished casting in 1425, which means finished researching in 1423?

What was your skill in 1423? (My impossible game would have jade, oh, 700 skill by then? Maybe more as the rest of my dark elf cities kicked in with amp towers?)

I actually feel on impossible it's too expensive. Your opponent has sky drakes by 1411 (and that not early, very Rares often show up earlier), so 15 years before SoM matters? That isn't realistic unless the human player actively chooses to waste that much time.
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(September 25th, 2016, 18:45)Nelphine Wrote: Finished casting in 1425, which means finished researching in 1423?

What was your skill in 1423? (My impossible game would have jade, oh, 700 skill by then? Maybe more as the rest of my dark elf cities kicked in with amp towers?)

I actually feel on impossible it's too expensive. Your opponent has sky drakes by 1411 (and that not early, very Rares often show up earlier), so 15 years before SoM matters? That isn't realistic unless the human player actively chooses to waste that much time.

My skill was about 400-450 with lots of fluctuations (Amplifying towers getting destroyed by meteor storm and rebuilt). 50 of that was from my heroes.

Sky Drakes in 1411 is not typical. I'm running AI only simulation games and generally they have their first very rare in the 1410-1415 range, but at that pain they only have like one or two in some cities.
Around 1416-18 they get enough to at least fill their capital and have some of them start to appear outside cities, but stacks containing large numbers of them usually only happen after 1420. (at least this is what I saw from observing 4 AI playing 4 games so 16 players total)
A player with multiple Sky Drakes in 1411 most likely got the spell from treasure. I would expect AI in 1410 to be halfway done with their rares, maybe having one or two very rares at most.

If they really researched up to Sky Drake that early, they would have SoM in 1420 and I haven't see it before 1425 yet even from AI controlling 90% of the game world.

I'll have to run more tests of course, 4 is nothing, but AI turns are slow on impossible even if the game plays itself in the background it takes half a day for one to complete.

(Also I admit I don't play Impossible that much. Extreme is targeted to be "THE" difficulty veterans including myself play most often. Impossible is one level beyond that, where one can use the most powerful setups without having to worry about braking game balance, or just to push the challenge beyond the limits.)

On the other hand I feel this is the time I should mention I had a Normal difficulty game where the AI had a very rare spell in 1408. And it was one I couldn't deal with so I gave up. Of course it was from a tower and haven't seen it since then. On impossible this happens more often because they can take out more towers and nodes, earlier, and they contain higher treasure. It's reasonable to expect at least one AI to find something very rare before 1410.
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Yeah the treasure very rare is usually what impossible get. They can break lairs much faster.

I think I'll play a few extreme games, and try to see balance there. But i wouldn't increase the cost on impossible if at all possible. It's very easy to have multiple opponents with spell blast, and while I 'only' would have 700 casting skill, an impossible AI could very easily have 1000+, before counting it's overland bonuses. People with SoM could face multiple max strength spell blasts per turn, per AI.

However my real problem is that impossible is just so fast. I've yet to see an impossible where the winner wasn't extremely obvious by 1415, which means SoM just becomes irrelevant, which I think is sad.

Ideally I'd like for SoM to be cast by 1420 on impossible just so it stays relevant. But i agree that extreme is much more important for balance purposes, so I'm OK completely if that can't be done.
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Quote: It's very easy to have multiple opponents with spell blast, and while I 'only' would have 700 casting skill, an impossible AI could very easily have 1000+, before counting it's overland bonuses. People with SoM could face multiple max strength spell blasts per turn, per AI.
I don't see the connection here. It only takes 50 skill and mana to Spell Blast the Spell of Mastery if it's done on the first turn when nothing is spent into it yet. If any AI has Spell Blast, unless they run out of mana crystals which current AI is very unlikely to do, casting SoM is not possible, period.

Quote: I've yet to see an impossible where the winner wasn't extremely obvious by 1415, which means SoM just becomes irrelevant, which I think is sad.
Based on the numbers I saw in my current game, I could have most likely won with SoM even on impossible assuming I managed to settle the same amount of territory and conquered roughly the same cities (considering I used heroes that didn't even get damaged for 90% of my city attacks, this is not as unlikely as it sounds) but it would have been way closer than the AI only reaching halfway to it. The only two parts where this could have failed were the Arcnus wizard summoning so many very rare nature creatures that I can't stop, or the myrror wizard using time stop and somehow stop me form finishing SoM through taking too much extra turns to keep up with it.

Quote:Ideally I'd like for SoM to be cast by 1420 on impossible just so it stays relevant.
That's where the fun part of the game starts...well on extreme at least. On impossible I suppose it's 1415ish.
Military expansion is time consuming, especially on larger maps. Finishing before 1420 is often unrealistic even on lower difficulty. I once had a game where I finished around 1430 and the game would have went on for another 3-4 years if the AI wasn't still having to "0 mana no return" rule, which I abused to shorten the game. (was on Extreme and the AI was only 6k away from reaching SoM, I have this game up on youtube)
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This is why I want to do some extreme games. On impossible, despite my comments about lack of settling, the majority of the world is settled by 1412. And by 1415, I'm roaming around with multiple 9 stacks of buffed adamantium hammerhands, the AI has summoned dozens of sky drakes, every single lair, node and tower has been explored, and there are dozens of 9 stacks of enemy units anywhere he can go (Ariel has a stack next to every city on my home continent despite our alliance - most of which have lots of buffs. Jafar has stacks all around his troll cities though he has no sky drakes on Myrror yet.)

For the AI at least, aside from stacks of very Rares, there's nothing they can do to seriously increase their military by 1415.

Although I've never witnessed an AI war either. I've always been the focal point of the wars (though I've seen games where an arcanus wizard is defeated before towers are cracked.)

Edit: oops wrong thread. Oh well I'll leave it here for now.
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Personally I don't see the point in balancing things around impossible (other than impossible only things). I agree that extreme is most fun for me. Or if I'm tired and lazy hard.

Additionally on impossible I care if the ai can cast SoM a lot more than if the player can. It's impossible. The player is supposed to lose most of the time. On extreme I feel like winning a game in 25 with a finished SoM is a real strategy for sure.
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By watching the AI play I realized something interesting.
If a wizard has Spell Blast, but they research their own SoM, they will try casting it which means they are unable to spell blast anymore. At which point whichever wizard has more skill wins the game.

While this makes sure games aren't endless, I'm not sure if I like this. The AI should keep spell blasting if their own skill is lower than anyone's else's who has SoM. The player can abuse this by dumping everything into skill and waiting until the AI gets the SoM researched to cast their own faster.
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In the test game I'm running now, the AI has 1000 skill. If nothing else, that in itself might be enough of a reason to increase the casting cost.
I don't think that extra 10 to 15 turns it takes for the human player to cast it (assuming it is raised to 15000) matters too much, if they have a good enough defense force in their capital and can at least hold a portion of their territory, they should still win.
However having 10 or 15 turns to react and take out an AI capital makes a difference.

I also think the war declaration during warnings should not be random (10% per turn), instead it should be a fixed "if progress of casting>X mana then". This also avoids the situation when an ally misses their chance for Spell Blast before the progress gets to the point where the cost exceeds their mana reserve.

Edit : The typical casting skill of a wizard at the time of SoM in the vanilla game was around 150-200. In the mod it's around 450-700, which is 3 times more. So 3 times the base cost makes the most sense which is 15000, even if I ignore all other considerations and just want to retain the number of turns it takes to cast it still means it needs to be increased.
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I would think just declare war immediately if someone starts SoM.
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