Dave Taste Tests Some Russian Wines

[oledavy]

Turn 36

Overview of everything important:



Norwegian wood got the iron KL (and later I) would have gotten. I do have a guaranteed source in the northeast. If I feel like buying more tiles, I can buy the iron between Ichabod and I when Pinot Noir grabs the plains to the northwest.  

Got a promotion on my chariot archer, and Pindicator worker stole from Almaty.  

Speaking of which: 



The worker was on that hill west of KL. I stayed at war so as not to incur a bigger penalty later.  Yay for having two workers! I plan on improving some of the hammer tiles around Chardonnay with him.

Gold finished mining this turn, wines for Wellington coming up next! My chariot archer has finished his job in the north. I'm thinking about sending him and the scout to get this quest for Almaty: 



It's a little distant, but I might be able to manage it.  

Remicro'd Chardonnay to get the granary a turn earlier, at the cost of being able to work the two plains wines. That +4 food per turn is just too juicy. I wish plains wines were a better tile to work, but even with faith and culture, the production is just more important at this exact moment. All the more reason to get Chardonnay up to size as soon as possible.  

It all may be for nought though. Yuris's score went down this turn, and Nic's went up....

And HAK seems a bit clueless on this game. The game may yet again be decided on the other side of the world from me...

Guessing Yuri tried to do settlers + Stonehenge, settled close to Nic, and neglected military. Hope this doesn't destroy his morale. 

At least cities increase your tech cost!

[oledavy]

Turn 37

Two days later....

Anyway, we missed a day, but that's understandable considering Civ6's release I suppose. Anyway, I'll settle the third city next turn.  



Sailing about the come in. Pinot Noir is grabbing tiles towards the iron. Chardonnay towards the truffles. KL attacked my scout and did quite a bit of damage. The worker will take a ranged attack this turn, but it should only do 40 hp of damage if I recall correctly. Who knows, maybe AIs don't ranged attack non-combat units at all. My scout in Pinot Noir is healing up for one more turn before heading west. My chariot archer is heading west as well.  

Let's see if I can't land two city-state friends here in the next few turns.  

Abroad, Pindicator bought a couple tiles. I hope Yuri is not still losing to Nic. 

Someone nearby researched masonry.  



Ichabod's score is inflated from all the land he has in his culture. However, he's moving quickly to hook up luxuries, so he'll be in a position to grow before long. His production is still really good from stagnating growth in a few cities/Republic.  He is probably my biggest rival to win the game at this point, at least on our continent. Pindicator may surprise me yet, but he's lagging a bit. Granted, he didn't have the double culture ruins start Ichabod did, so anyone might be lagging in that situation.  

Granary finishes next turn, time to start growing Chardonnay super tall and getting all those wines into play.  

Wine ideas for my third city's name?

[Dreylin]

Malbec if you're looking for a red, Pinot Grigio for a white ... at least that's what I'd drink suggest.

[oledavy]

Malbec if you're looking for a red, Pinot Grigio for a white ... at least that's what I'd drink suggest.

I love Malbec, I was thinking Pinot Grigio but I already have a 'Pinot' city, so.....

Turn 38



I have deer alongside sheep and fish from the capital to get this city off the ground quickly, which is important since so many of this cities important tiles are outside the initial 6. I need to pick up iron, horse, truffles, and furs. Irritatingly, it's targeting the truffles first. Chardonnay is already going to pick up it's truffles, which I'll be improving in a few turns with my enslaved worker, so this tile isn't a super-high priority at the moment. 

After a long debate with myself, I went ahead and bought the iron between me and Ichabod. 



Pinot Noir didn't target it for the next expansion, so I needed to buy it if I wanted to guarantee it. I would have rather saved the gold and bought a tile around Malbec, but this one might not be available in a bit, and 4 iron vs. 2 iron is too much to pass up. I think frigates are going to be big for me this game, and I would like to field more than a couple of them. The interim costs are the opportunity cost of that 50 gold and risking pissing off Ichabod, I've bought 3 tiles between us... I might not be happy about that were I him.

I've bought 6 tiles so far this game, iirc. They've all felt super critical at the time though. 

Overview:



Almaty and Wellington put out quests, Almaty to bully KL (lol) and Wellington for a public works project. Turns out, KL didn't attack the worker! Nothing going on abroad that I've noticed. I don't think Ichabod had enough to buy the iron tile. I wonder if he was planning on it.  Cities are growing in 2, 4, and 6 turns. I have 8 pop at the moment to Ichabod's 10, but I have a little more room to grow. I expect we'll stay pretty even until I get the tradition finisher. My crop yield is the best in the world right now, but Ichabod's production is scary. Definitely going to want some military to dissuade attackers. 

My internal debate right now is how to micro Chardonnay in the coming turns. Do I want Landed Elite a turn earlier? Or do I want a watermill a turn earlier? I'm going to sit down over lunch and see what works out better.

[T-hawk]

That last one looks pretty clear cut. Each option is the same +2 food. The hammer from the watermill is more than the +10% from Landed Elite as long as you have less than +10 surplus food.

Also, a hammer is better than a culture towards the next item in each of those queues, since the culture represents a smaller portion of the next item, since culture policy costs escalate more than hammer costs do.

[oledavy]

That last one looks pretty clear cut.  Each option is the same +2 food.  The hammer from the watermill is more than the +10% from Landed Elite as long as you have less than +10 surplus food.

Also, a hammer is better than a culture towards the next item in each of those queues, since the culture represents a smaller portion of the next item, since culture policy costs escalate more than hammer costs do.

I figured out a way to micro Landed Elite and the watermill to both come out on t42, but it delays the growth of the city from t43 to t44. 

I might be able to optimize it further, but I will come at it again later with a fresh mind. Essentially, the trade off is thus:

t42 Landed Elite, t42 Watermill, t44 size 6 VS. t44 Landed Elite, t42 Watermill, t43 size 6.

+18 Gold
+7 Faith
+ 7 Culture
-2 Production
-7.8 Food
-1 science

There is also the long-term unknown quantity of how much that faith helps me get better religious options. But that's really impossible to quantify. Putting that aside, do you have any thoughts on this resource trade-off T-Hawk? I'm leaning towards the latter plan at the moment.

[oledavy]

Also, does anyone have the foodbox growth numbers for Civ5?

[T-hawk]

Look ahead to the next item in each of the queues to get an idea of which tradeoff is preferable.  The 7 faith will probably gain you a turn on founding the religion, so an extra turn's worth of whatever you take there.  The 18 gold is roughly two turns on your next purchase, whatever it may be.  The 7 culture is most likely one turn on your next policy (Aristocracy, so will you be building a wonder at that time.)  You should already be able to tell whether the -2 production will cost a turn on your next build item.  The 8 food is probably one turn on your next growth (and this requires knowing what tile will be available and improved for that next citizen to work.)

The formula for food growth is surprisingly hard to find since all the info references have an out-of-date version.  Look in the Civ 6 formula cost thread in the general forum, that has the same numbers as the final version of Civ 5.

[oledavy]

Turn 39

Thanks for all the advice T-Hawk! I figured out queues until t50, and ultimately decided on the first plan. Losing that much good would delay my growth to size 7 significantly, and I want to get the city up to size 9 as soon as possible so I don't have to make all these painful tile trade off choices.  I have to say, goddess of festivals is a little bit tortuous, as you want to work these generally pretty weak tiles. 

I did figure out how to get a few extra faith and culture out of my timeline though, without slowing my growth to size 7. So, here is what the city looks like right now: 



So, here are some turn numbers for you guys to mull over:

t39: Pinot Noir grows to size 3, works gold and goes down to a +1 food surplus while finishing a granary. Worker next. 
t41: Maclbec grows to size 2
t42: Chardonnay Watermill finishes
t43: Become friends with Wellington, Chardonnay grows to size 6
t44: Landed elite comes in
t46: Malbec grows to size 3
t47: Chardonnay grows to size 7
~t55: Mobilization finishes
~t55: First religion falls abroad
~t60: I found the 2nd/3rd religion

After the watermill, Chardonnay is building a chariot archer, 2 archers, and 2 spearmen. This will be the army I take KL with and use to deter my neighbors. After that, I think I'll build a library and HG, maybe a caravan. Hopefully we can get by on two workers/the worker Pinot builds next/another capture from KL? until then. Malbec is going to do a trireme after the granary to explore to the east. 

One scout is about to start healing up in Chardonnay before exploring the seas. My western worker is finishing improving Pinot's wines before moving to Chardonnay's grassland wines. The eastern worker is building a camp on the deer, camping the truffles, then chopping a forest to speed up my mobization.  

Micro aside, here's what's going on in the west:  



I thought Ichabod bought that tile at first, but he it was actually acquired naturally through culture. Also note, he worker stole from Wellington. I was halfway tempted to send my CA north to try and interdict that, but even if the worker was on the favorable position improving the silver and not the horses, I would probably not be able to kill the warrior? and capture the worker before it got back under the cover of Ichabod's overlapping city-center fields of fire. Pity, that influence would have been nice. Anyway, I'm going to declare on Ichabod next turn and move my CA through his culture, then offer peace. My scout is working its way around the south. I would have set him up to be sent him through too, but I wouldn't put it past Ichabod to take a shot at him before taking the peace deal. No, we're going to be careful. I could have gotten through this turn, but by waiting and setting up, my chariot will end next turn in a location where it can't be fired upon. Ichabod hasn't seen my chariot, although he can tell I have one from the trade screen. The move should come as a surprise to him next turn though. 

We'll see if we can't get that camp for Almaty yet.

[oledavy]

Turn 39

Thanks for all the advice T-Hawk! I figured out queues until t50, and ultimately decided on the first plan. Losing that much food would delay my growth to size 7 significantly, and I want to get the city up to size 9 as soon as possible so I don't have to make all these painful tile trade off choices.  I have to say, goddess of festivals is a little bit tortuous, as you want to work these generally pretty weak tiles. 

I did figure out how to get a few extra faith and culture out of my timeline though, without slowing my growth to size 7. So, here is what the city looks like right now: 



So, here are some turn numbers for you guys to mull over:

t39: Pinot Noir grows to size 3, works gold and goes down to a +1 food surplus while finishing a granary. Worker next. 
t41: Maclbec grows to size 2
t42: Chardonnay Watermill finishes
t43: Become friends with Wellington, Chardonnay grows to size 6
t44: Landed elite comes in
t46: Malbec grows to size 3
t47: Chardonnay grows to size 7
~t55: Mobilization finishes
~t55: First religion falls abroad
~t60: I found the 2nd/3rd religion

After the watermill, Chardonnay is building a chariot archer, 2 archers, and 2 spearmen. This will be the army I take KL with and use to deter my neighbors. After that, I think I'll build a library and HG, maybe a caravan. Hopefully we can get by on two workers/the worker Pinot builds next/another capture from KL? until then. Malbec is going to do a trireme after the granary to explore to the east. 

One scout is about to start healing up in Chardonnay before exploring the seas. My western worker is finishing improving Pinot's wines before moving to Chardonnay's grassland wines. The eastern worker is building a camp on the deer, camping the truffles, then chopping a forest to speed up my mobization.  

Micro aside, here's what's going on in the west:  



I thought Ichabod bought that tile at first, but he it was actually acquired naturally through culture. Also note, he worker stole from Wellington. I was halfway tempted to send my CA north to try and interdict that, but even if the worker was on the favorable position improving the silver and not the horses, I would probably not be able to kill the warrior? and capture the worker before it got back under the cover of Ichabod's overlapping city-center fields of fire. Pity, that influence would have been nice. Anyway, I'm going to declare on Ichabod next turn and move my CA through his culture, then offer peace. My scout is working its way around the south. I would have set him up to be sent him through too, but I wouldn't put it past Ichabod to take a shot at him before taking the peace deal. No, we're going to be careful. I could have gotten through this turn, but by waiting and setting up, my chariot will end next turn in a location where it can't be fired upon. Ichabod hasn't seen my chariot, although he can tell I have one from the trade screen. The move should come as a surprise to him next turn though. 

We'll see if we can't get that camp for Almaty yet.