Dave Taste Tests Some Russian Wines

[oledavy]

Turn 42

I ended up not going for Almaty's camp. Basically, the turn I was going to declare and move through Ichabod's territory, his happiness and military power both spiked. He had 4 excess happiness from hooking something up, so if I declared on him and canceled our resource trade, he wouldn't have as strong as an incentive to make peace immedietly. I also believe he built a couple of immortals, so there was a chance I could get my CA, a really valuable unit to me at this point, into a pickle. So, instead, I moved the CA into Pinot to save me gold, and have now officially written off the camp. 

The other thing of note is that I became friends with Wellington a turn earlier than I thought, and as a result have two more food in Chardonnay than I thought I would have. I will probably sit down at some point in the coming days and adjust micro to take advantage of that. To that end, I have included this picture of Chardonnay for me to reference:  




The other noteworthy micro thing is that I accidentally automated KL's worker for a couple turns, and lost some worker turns as a result.    Not entirely sure how I managed to do that, but we're back to our regularly scheduled programming now. Still going ahead with camping the deer, camping the truffles, then chopping a forest, but a turn later.  

Since I'm not not going to pop the camp, I'm waiting for optics to send one of my scouts south:  



One scout will go south, nab this, and then explore to the southeast. The scout that's currently healing in Chardonnay will go northeast. I do have a little bit of coast east of KL and the far western side of the continent to still explore as well, but they are not high priorities at the moment. I do wish I had more tiles around Persepolis defogged so I could see if Ichabod is building a wonder. I say this because:  



I think I'm going to go Iron Working next and build the Colossus in Malbec. It feels like a really cost efficient wonder, and I will have tons of hammers in Malbec from iron, horses, and aristocracy. Not firmly set on it yet, but the tentative build order for the city will be granary -> trireme -> Colossus.  

Of note abroad, Pindicator is getting attacked by what I can only presume are barbs: 

 

But anyway, that's where things stand for the most part. Still trucking along on my mostly intact micro plans.  Here's Wellington:  



I can give them a unit for more influence than normal. Also, they have silver improved, and Chardonnay needs silver for it's WLTKD. Getting that silver is now worth a lot of food for me. Which brings us to the big decision to be made:  



I can still give Wellington a unit for extra influence because Ichabod is still at war.  This means he at least wants to steal another worker, but probably wants to conquer the city-state due to his spiking power. Wellington is very valuable to me. It's friendly, and the food it grants works very well with my "grow Chardonnay" plan. More importantly, the silver. I have no guarantee of being able to get silver elsewhere.  

So first off, I think one of the units I build in my impending mobilization, I'm going to give to Wellington. I feel like an archer would be better, since they have no units and this would allow them to shove a unit into their city center.  There's an argument for a warrior if they're more likely to leave an archer in the open. 

At any rate, I think 26 hammers is a good price to pay for the influence, resulting food, and making Wellington less vulnerable to attack. 

How far do I want to go to defend Wellington from Ichabod, and can I do it while still assaulting Kuala Lumpur? I don't know at the moment, but it will be my primary foreign policy dilemma for in the coming terms.

[Commodore]

Interesting how city states play in MP like this. No way you can cap Welly yourself?

I actually think I like Civ5's graphics better than Civ6.

[oledavy]

Turn 45

Well....



Warning, tilt incoming.

So, I don't blame Ichabod for doing him. This is a smart move for him. What kills me the most is that I've seen this coming for three turns. I have been watching his power spike, saw him flip into a golden age, and even saw an immortal running around in his borders. This was an eventuality I called from the first turn in this game that I met him. Something I planned to be prepared for. Indeed, if this same attack came 10 turns from now, I would be able to brush it off with ease. 

It's frustrating that despite all that, I'm still going to lose Pinot Noir and possibly Chardonnay. And looking back, the only thing I might have done differently was not buy tiles towards him in an effort to not be as provocative. The long and short, however, is that I expected an attack, but expected it around t55-60. Not now on t45. That was the entire point of planning to take KL and have an army left over. I even slipped into military builds everywhere last turn and accelerated my archer coming out of Chardonnay when I sensed an attack was imminent. It was just too late though.  

Furthermore, looking back at my build path, I really don't see how I could have crammed much more military out sooner. Chardonnay's builds have been:  

Scout -> Scout -> Monument -> Shrine -> Worker -> Settler -> Chariot Archer -> Settler -> Granary -> Watermill -> Archer. 

The only place I can see to really have crammed out more military is the hammers invested in a granary and watermill over the last 10 turns. My military tech is solid, I have horses hooked up. Yet I'm still going to lose a city. Furthermore, because of how strong 3 moves during a golden age is, he's probably going to just completely alpha strike Pinot Noir, and instantly pick up 8 happiness in luxury resources while my unhappiness will only go down by 3. 

For the record, this is the situation last turn when I realized an attack was imminent: 

 

But no, at least a 3 pop city lost, the free monument, and all the hammers invested in a granary. It's going to send the pop totals on this continent from: 

Me: 11
Ichabod: 10
Pindicator: 9

to 

Me: 8
Ichabod: 12?
Pindicator: 9

Not to mention the gold sunk into buying tiles, the opportunity costs, blargh. 

It's just a fiasco. 

Chardonnay is a strong city, and if I can hold it I won't be out of the game, but my odds going forward will be very much reduced. 

This may just be the early advantage of liberty coming into play on a relatively tight map. I know Tradition will outpace Ichabod in the long run, but early on, Liberty (snowballed by double culture ruins) has allowed him to save a lot of hammers on settlers and run up his production early with Republic. The free GA to synergize with Persia's UA is just the coup de grace.

But no, I'm extremely frustrated. It doesn't help that we're being pub-stomped in the other game on this site I'm playing right now, and it's been a rough week in the states to start off with. All I really want to do now is play Civ6...

No though, we'll keep trying. It just frustrates me no end that I can basically do everything right (to my knowledge), and still come up short for it. Once again, I find myself on the receiving end of being rushed by Ichabod...

Anyway, we'll see if I can't give him a good fight. My scouts both have +25 defense promotions, so they are decent units for holding terrain. We're delaying overseas exploration and bringing them back to the capital. My CA is running from the scene. As a consequence of all his units having 3 moves, I can't even fire and retreat. The river guarantees I would be cut off.  

I'm going to reform the defense line around Chardonnay with my two scouts, archer, and CA, and hopefully that plus Oligarchy will allow me to hold. The priority now is just lasting through his golden age. Of course, he might just take a GA as his Liberty finisher GP and resume his attack a little bit down the line. My overall game plan remains the same, although taking KL is now permanently on hold. 

As an aside, he made peace with Wellington, so staying at war with them may have even been a false flag operation to throw me off. It worked 

But no, Immediate priority is to build enough military to stabilize the situation. Long term goal is to take back Pinot Noir then try to get back into my original game plan. If I can't take back Pinot Noir, I'll backfill to my northeast and southeast to get to four cities. At least he's taking the city before I get the tradition finisher. Keeping that -3 unhappiness is going to bite though. 

So, my salvation here is Pindicator. Ichabod has done a lot to make himself appear as the tall poppy on our continent. I assume Pindicator is trading dyes for cotton with Ichabod. I offered him dyes for wine for declaring war on Ichabod. That alone will make things slightly harder on Ichabod, and make it more difficult for him to press into Chardonnay due to a lack of happiness. Long-term though, the strength of his position will encourage Pindicator to work together with me against him....hopefully Pindicator is not too checked out.  

Anyway, frustrating turn of events, but I'm going to get back to work and see if I can limit the damage and come back from this.

[oledavy]

Turn 46

Thought I took a picture, but it turns out I didn't

Pinot stands for one more turn. Ichabod has a massive army: 5 archers, 2 warriors, 2 immortals. 

3 move units are hell to plan around. I'm doing the best I can to fire and retreat towards Chardonnay.  

Pindicator doesn't seem to grasp the dire nature of the situation, made a counter-offer with just the resource trade. I accepted and made another desperate plea for him to enter the war. I don't want him to fight, I just want the luxury trade between him and Ichabod over.  


I misspoke last turn, Ichabod still has not made peace with Wellington.

Working on Masonry now to get composite bow upgrades coming down the pipeline. Workers about to start chopping out military. I think after Tradition finisher, I might go into honor. Terracotta army is also looking tempting. I need to get some units in the field first though. One thing is certain though, it's going to be awhile before I do anything but build military.

[oledavy]

Turn 47

I swear, I'm going to lose my mind trying to play around Persia in a GA. For those of you who have never had the pleasure of playing around Persia played by a human, it effectively means that you can't fire and retreat. You need to be able to hold the ground, otherwise they will just chase you down and kill you. Furthermore, having a military that is the same size is not good enough, as they can stage out of your range and get the first shot in. Indeed, you can effectively alpha strike endlessly. 

This is incredibly frustrating to fight, and since my military is smaller than Ichabod's, I'm just screwed. I just pray for the golden age to come to an end soon. This is the 5th turn I believe. If I'm right on that, and right that GA's for Persia will last 9t, it means I have to make it to t51. That may be too late.  



No though, he killed my chariot archer as I fired and retreated, with just an archer and Immortal 

Major blow in an already bleak time. We did get a couple breaks this turn though. Pindicator declared war on Ichabod, thank you Pin!   I owe you a big one.  Ichabod also left Pinot's wines uncovered, so I opted to sacrifice a scout to pillage them. That knocks him down to -4 unhappiness, with the only prospect of more coming from Chardonnay's wines or Wellington's silver. 

He's positioned about half of his forces between Malbec and Chardonnay. I'm hoping he'll look at the happiness, the resources around Malbec, and conclude this war isn't worth continuing. If he wants to raze Malbec, I don't think I can do much. If I had had more presence of mind over the last few turns, I might have moved a scout into Malbec for the Oligarchy bonus. But I've been more worried about holding Chardonnay. I can come back if I have Chardonnay, I can't come back with just Malbec. 

So, Ichabod's move. March on Chardonnay (tossup, in his favor), march on Malbec (I lose handily, but Chardonnay survives), or turn to Wellington. Hoping he does the last one, ironic considering my early attempts to forestall him from doing that earlier. 

Spear out next turn, and Chardonnay grows and becomes a 14 str. city next turn, so it will be a tough nut to crack with just archers and Immortals. But, with the Persian GA, anything is possible.  

Then again, opening the turn to -4 unhappiness and Pin at war with him might jolt him and make him worried about Pasagadae, so much so that he breaks off his assault and moves forces south to protect it. An unlikely scenario, but probably the best case one right now.  

One can hope.

[T-hawk]

Well, I predict that there will be no future RB games of Civ 5 that include Persia, at any rate.

[oledavy]

Well, I predict that there will be no future RB games of Civ 5 that include Persia, at any rate.

I'm still debating if I think Persia is OP. I don't want to be that guy who belittles his opponenet's accomplishment by blaming another factor. I made some mistakes here too - although they've only become obvious in hindsight. Still, Persia is just hella frustrating to play against.

Anyway, the end is near: 

Can I be real a second?



I could wax at length about all the little decisions I've made over the last couple turns, and my general observations on this war. But its difficult to find the motivation with defeat staring me in the face. It will be a near run thing if I survive. 

We gotta stop 'em and rob 'em of their advantages

[oledavy]

Turn 51



Welp, that was fun while it lasted. I'm going to ask to be allowed to surrender and let the AI play out the remainder of this game. 

I put my remaining workers and archer to sea to the east.

I have been entertaining for the last few turns, the idea of building a settler and striking out into the ocean to find an island to settle. However, I doubt I would be able to build a settler and found a city before Ichabod takes Malbec. Moreover, if he elects to not take Malbec due to his unhappiness situation, then I'm just left basically as a city-state with no way to really influence the game for as long as it may last. Not something I really look forward to doing. 

So, I think I'm going to surrender after T52. Next turn I'm going to:

 - Make peace with Kuala Lumpur
 - Delete the two workers
 - Gift the embarked archer to Wellington (Make it slightly harder for Ichabod to take).
 - Fortify the new archer in Malbec and queue up walls
 - Gift all my gold to Pindicator

Regarding the last one, I know there is an awful tendency of outgoing players in this game to gift unearned advantages to other players in the game. However, Pindicator not only came into the war in my hour of need, but also gifted me dyes for free this last turn when I asked it. The latter, I was intending to repay him for with free wines when I rehooked them. Since I can't do that, giving him a parting gift of ~90 gold (especially since he will be locked into sending the wines to the AI for 29 more turns).

[oledavy]

The Post Mortem

It all went south so quickly....just 10 turns ago I was really excited for my chances in this game. 

I think my game can be boiled down to two peacetime mistakes, two wartime mistakes, and one grand strategy mistake.

The Peacetime Mistakes

Building The Granary and Watermill
 - Granted, when I started building the granary, Ichabod's military was the worst in the game. However, I allowed myself to be blind to his buildup and put in a watermill where I could have crammed out a couple of archers. 

Buying Tiles Towards Ichabod
 - I bought three tiles towards Ichabod around Pinot Noir. If this is what provoked him, it was my biggest mistake all game. However, the bigger cost was the opportunity cost of the gold, and not having it to cash-rush another defender.

The Wartime Mistakes

Losing the Chariot Archer
 - I'm still pretty sure I got a bad damage roll here, and that's what allowed him to kill it with only two units. Still, I should have never taken the chance to begin with, and just kept retreating it towards Chardonnay

Building Walls When I Did
 - After the spearman, and putting one turn into an archer, I had the idea that walls were the better build in Chardonnay, and so I put my chops into them and finished them on t50, the turn Ichabod took the city. Of course, building them in the middle of the siege meant I wouldn't get the full effect of them, indeed, he captured the city before they completed. If I had build these first before Ichabod reached the city, I might have been able to hold it. I don't think building an extra archer or spear in their stead on the final turn would have prevented Chardonnay's fall,  but I definitely could have finished them before his army arrived. I just wasn't convinced he would come for Chardonnay, and wanted the biggest possible army in the field. I wanted to be able to eventually retake Pinot and Malbec. 

This, combined with losing the chariot archer, is what allowed him to take Chardonnay. I think if I had avoided both of these mistakes, I might have been able to hold the city. 

And finally, the meta mistake:

Taking Tradition with Two Liberty Neighbors

I still think Tradition was better for my start, and better long-term. However, what I didn't appreciate before this game started was just how many extra early game hammers Liberty grants you. Even if I hadn't been pushing infrastructure after my two settlers, I would have been behind Ichabod on military. Because I did, and he had about twice my hammers to begin with, I was really behind. On a tight map like this, liberty can confer an enormous military advantage over your tradition counterparts through hammers saved on settlers and Republic hammers. Ichabod being Persia with Immortals and being in the Liberty GA was just icing on the cake. 

Referring a couple posts back, I don't know if Persia is OP. I will just leave it that they are extremely infuriating to play against. 

It's just endlessly irritating to me that I saw this possibility coming, but was still not prepared for it. I simply thought I would have about 10 more turns to prepare than I did, and Ichabod blew that estimate right out of the water.  

So Long and Thanks for All The Fish

Thanks Yuri for suggesting this game idea! It was exactly what I wanted to play in coming back to RB. Best of luck with the rest of your game
Thanks Chumchu for making the map! I don't think I can even go back to playing Civ5 MP on non-handmade maps. This was was great, and I can't wait to see the rest of it in the lurker thread.
Thanks Pindicator for playing and being a stalwart ally! I know you were not super interested in playing this game, so thanks for making it possible for us to go ahead by joining us!
Thanks HAK, Nic, Ichabod! It was a blast you guys.

And sincerely, well played Ichabod. You ran a very tight game.

And with that being said, I will play the next turn, surrender, and take my leave. It's been fun folks!

[chumchu]

Well fought!

Your position was unenviable as Persia settled towards you. I think that Persia is slightly below the Huns in the nightmare neighbors league. They are an incredibly good civ that can attack you with a huge bonus any time and with any unit composition from turn 45 onwards. If they do not attack they might well be sim citying away from you with constant golden ages. Other rush civs are often very predictable.

That being said I think that you went into the situation with the wrong mindset. When you see Persia going liberty and settling towards you you have to act. Ideally you want to dissuade him from attacking before his build up evens starts. Do this by looking prickly, showing off fortified spearmen or chariot archers. You probably need to get your defenses up and at least scout for incoming troops. I think Pinot Noir should have been settled more defensively, either on the hill or behind the river as it is your border city with Persia. That and placing a scout between his cites are cheap ways to dissuade you opponent from attacking.

Thanks for the kind words. I would really appreciate your feedback in the map making thread.