Unfinished business - SG for improving at Civ 4 (sic)

[Brian Shanahan]

I have the save now.

Looking at the game, we're pretty safe once the current crop of military rolls out. Up north our two chariots have >80% odds on the wounded archers so we're safe from them too. I'd be slightly worried for Flying Dutchman as the odds aren't that good against a full strength archer.

The copper won't come on line for at least four turns (for the border pop) plus two more (if we pile three workers on). Realistically we're most of my turnset without copper. So I'll see what we can do with Iron in two turns.

Workers stay where they currently are, improving those cities they are standing nearest. The two roading the copper are on chopping duty in two turns, and copper duty in four. The one by Christmas Present is going to plant a plains hill mine, and then we'll see what's the best return. One of the three at Xmas Present goes back to Bean a Sidhe and mines some more tiles there, and the rest continue what they're doing.

We need workers badly, both Bean a Sidhe and Yaqob will build at least one worker this set (two if possible) and that will bring us to 9-10 for five cities.

If we get nice Iron I'll look to make a few swords and axes in order to snipe a city or two. Chariots on their own won't do it, but a combined arms force of 7-8 units will take Gergovia at least (which is still connected by road to Bibracte), and maybe the city to the south east.

Tech wise our next priorities will be Calendar (17 turns at 40%/7 at 100%), Metal Casting (21 turns/9 turns) and probably Construction (17/7 too). I prefer Calendar as it's slightly quicker than Metal Casting, and will give us one happy straight away. After those three it's a choice between go for Civil Service, and go for Literature.

Slightly longer term, I think we should capture the three barb cities. Chinook, even with four dead tiles will be a decent to good commerce city with two food tiles, Khazakh (or it's refounding on the river, I'm agnositic on that) will be a strong commerce city, and Cuman will give decent production.

Will play this tomorrow. I want to pose a question about our strategy but I'll post that seperately.

[Brian Shanahan]

I believe we're going Dom/Conquest route, correct? Do we want to skip the corporations and go all out to industrialism? If so we want to get down workshops, windmills and watermills as they are excellent improvements with Communism. Infantry and Arty should be enough to rule the world if we push hard enough and have a strong enough production base, especially if we've whipped and drafted a strong renaissance army.

If we go the corporations route, the only relevant ones are Sids/Cereals and Mining Inc. The first for the food, the second for the extra hammers. I think this will be slower, but it'll give us a huge production edge if we want to wait until it'll ramp up fully. We'll be attacking with tanks and modern armour though in this scenario.

Regarding Generals, I think we'll need two healers max, both Chariots, and after that (if we get them) we should merge our Generals into Bean a Sidhe, it'd be nice to crank out a core of CR3 Axes or Maces that we can upgrade to rifles (uber powerful in the early industrial era).

[RefSteel]

What's the back-up plan if one of the 80% attacks on injured archers fails? The chance of two separate 80% rolls succeeding isn't even 2:1, so though it's likely, I wouldn't bet everything on it. Also note that while friendly reinforcements are moving to the front(s), Boudica and the barbs might well be sending in reinforcements of their own.

For longer-term strategy, I'd argue to just place your best tile improvements now. When workshops become actually good and you want to switch over to production, you can pave over other improvements to build them.

And a spoiler for another recently-added (and apparently barb-threatened) city. Almost caught up!

City #5 is not only the first coastal city in the empire, but planted in the farthest southern reaches. This makes it the perfect location for its name: The Flying Dutchman is a ghost ship usually sighted off the far southern tip of Africa, and in the story from which this illustration is taken, its range extends even further south. Oh, and did you think we were done with Scrooge for the moment? On the contrary! As this painting by Carl Barks demonstrates, we've only begun:


"The Fliegende Hollander was seen in full sail many times in the years that followed in the waters south of the Cape of Good Hope!
"Always it was seen on stormy nights, its sails blood red, and sailing against the wind!" -Carl Barks, Uncle Scrooge and the Flying Dutchman

(Obviously this is not the original source for the legend, but as with Bean a Sidhe, this is folklore, and has no known original source - and wherever the story first was told, it certainly wasn't in writing! This will also apply to many other ghosts - as we'll hopefully discover over the course of the game! In any case, author-illustrator Carl Barks took some liberties with this ghost ship's legend, not to mention the spelling of the Dutch name, but as with most ghost stories, the legend of the Flying Dutchman has many, many variations anyway.)

[haphazard1]

I will second RefSteel's question about back up planning for those barb archers. 80% rolls are decent odds, but far from sure things. I would not bet a city on winning both, but if you are only risking the chariots themselves then it could be very nice to try to eliminate that threat and gain some XP to promote the chariots.

RefSteel's point about workshops is also a good one. Early on they are not very good, and since they do not need to grow it is often better to build them later once they become more viable. Yes, you are "wasting" worker turns, but later on you will generally have more worker turns available to do the changeover on tile improvements.

Another nice piece of art. The legend of the Flying Dutchman and all its variations are fascinating.

[shallow_thought]

Great report! Tough war!

For all my stressing, there's actually not been any combat   .

I'd have founded to get the copper first ring, reason being that: we didn't have iron working when the city was founded and it gets a grassland copper tile right away. 2/4/0 is really strong.

Are Boudica's chariots promoted? Did you consider attacking?

I just couldn't bring myself to have so much (plains) overlap with CP, and to lose the grassland. The new city - two food sources, copper for infra-builds, rivers, grassland everywhere is a potential monster, whether for commerce or GPP. I can see it being the cap one day... as Brian has been saying for a while, we're going to need a real commerce site soon (need to get started on the cottages). OTOH, if I'd known (or noticed, evidence might have been available) Boudicca had iron working, that might have swung the balance.

How long the copper city's location actually delays axes will depend on how many workers are ready to mine when borders pop

We have two workers roading or on the copper waiting to road right now, and a third arriving. What we don't have (I think Brian notes it in his post) is the fourth worker to allow us a 1t mine. It would have been coming from CP, but we've got an extra chariot instead. So, yet another turn dropped there before we have copper.

If the city is on a hill, then an archer would get good odds against a gallic warrior. Fortified on the hill/city would be very good, although obviously that would take several turns.

Re attacking chariot vs. chariot, I think the issue was a potential loss would have left the city with fewer defenders than Boudica had units present. Holding the chariot back and whipping the warrior guarantees the city can not fall this turn, allowing time for reinforcement chariots to arrive. (At least this was my understanding.)

We are on a hill, and have the border-pop culture at least. Both chariots were promoted, one C1, one F1, so an attack would only have had ~30% anyway, and left the city vulnerable.

More outstanding art, RefSteel, thanks!

One of the first threads I ever read at RB was a Bulrathi succession game; I haven't been able to find it again quickly, but there was some really fun in-character stuff, I think by RefSteel amognst others. I love the more tangential stuff in some threads; actually learning new things is icing on the cake!

I have the save now.

If we get nice Iron I'll look to make a few swords and axes in order to snipe a city or two. Chariots on their own won't do it, but a combined arms force of 7-8 units will take Gergovia at least (which is still connected by road to Bibracte), and maybe the city to the south east.

Tech wise our next priorities will be Calendar (17 turns at 40%/7 at 100%), Metal Casting (21 turns/9 turns) and probably Construction (17/7 too). I prefer Calendar as it's slightly quicker than Metal Casting, and will give us one happy straight away. After those three it's a choice between go for Civil Service, and go for Literature.

Slightly longer term, I think we should capture the three barb cities. Chinook, even with four dead tiles will be a decent to good commerce city with two food tiles, Khazakh (or it's refounding on the river, I'm agnositic on that) will be a strong commerce city, and Cuman will give decent production.

Will play this tomorrow. I want to pose a question about our strategy but I'll post that seperately.

Good luck! I'd consider getting CoL in that tech chain somewhere - we want those courthouses. I left some signs on the map thinking about future cities  - one for the fish, which I think matches an earlier post of yours and a couple of speculative ones up north looking to grab the cow and hem in Mansa (I would suggested have prioritising this area as the coast is "safe"). If capturing the barb city works for the latter, that's great.

[Brian Shanahan]

I'm not playing today, mainly because I'm too lazy after all the christmas eating and drinking yesterday.

Regarding the barbs, both are to snipe wandering barbs far from cities. The one near Frying Dutchman which has a chance of taking a city I'm not attacking.

The longer term strategy is more geared towards how we want to win the game, and as such I was only talking about improvements as at the time they are at full effectiveness.

[Zalson]

Yeah. I think we're on the same page as it comes to improvements: whatever is maximally effective.

We should conquer someone when it comes to state property/corp economy. We can always convert them as needed?

[shallow_thought]

I'm not playing today, mainly because I'm too lazy after all the christmas eating and drinking yesterday.

Too damn right. That's what I wanted to hear . I was worried we were taking this far too seriously.

[RefSteel]

Cool - I do like sniping barbs long before they reach my cities, but that's usually not a priority for me while I'm entangled in a hot war, as then I usually want units to reach the front ASAP and am probably building more units that can take care of the barbs if they wander too close. (There are always exceptions, naturally!)

Enough of my babble about tactics though; let's finish catching up on these cities:

The sixth and newest city in the empire is Brocken Spectre, and its location beside a lonely mountain standing high above the rainforest perfectly matches its name: Another quite wonderful type of ghost of which an example is captured here in a photograph(!) taken by Ramon & Conxi:


"And art thou nothing? Such thou art, as when
"The woodman winding westward up the glen
"At wintry dawn, where o'er the sheep-track's maze
"The viewless snow-mist weaves a glist'ning haze,
"Sees full before him, gliding without tread,
"An image with a glory round its head;
"The enamoured rustic worships its fair hues,
"Nor knows he makes the shadow, he pursues!"
- Samuel Taylor Coleridge, from Constancy to an Ideal Object

This is the first ghost we've encountered here that I'd never heard of before, so I had to do a little research, which was great! The name "Brocken Spectre," unusually for these ghosts, is mainly used by people who understand exactly what causes the phenomenon: An optical illusion resulting from backscattering opposite a light source and the way shadows ride billowing clouds, most commonly seen from mountaintops by hikers looking down out of sunlight into cloudbanks below. Local weather conditions make this a relatively common occurence on Brocken itself (a lonely mountain in Germany) but it also contributes to the legend of Am Fear Liath Mor, the Grey Man of Ben MacDhui, on a well-suited Scottish mountain, and can appear in various other locations - like the one in Spain where the photograph above was taken.

(Coleridge, the quoted poet, was obviously aware of the real nature of this phenomenon, but it should be noted that the full poem excerpted above could be read as though it were addressed to a ghost! He is also of course most famous for what amounts to a ghost story in rhyme - or rather, in Rime.)

[shallow_thought]

Cool - I do like sniping barbs long before they reach my cities, but that's usually not a priority for me while I'm entangled in a hot war, as then I usually want units to reach the front ASAP and am probably building more units that can take care of the barbs if they wander too close.  (There are always exceptions, naturally!)

Enough of my babble about tactics though; let's finish catching up on these cities:

The sixth and newest city in the empire is Brocken Spectre, and its location beside a lonely mountain standing high above the rainforest perfectly matches its name:  Another quite wonderful type of ghost of which an example is captured here in a photograph(!) taken by Ramon & Conxi:


"And art thou nothing? Such thou art, as when
"The woodman winding westward up the glen
"At wintry dawn, where o'er the sheep-track's maze
"The viewless snow-mist weaves a glist'ning haze,
"Sees full before him, gliding without tread,
"An image with a glory round its head;
"The enamoured rustic worships its fair hues,
"Nor knows he makes the shadow, he pursues!"
- Samuel Taylor Coleridge, from Constancy to an Ideal Object

This is the first ghost we've encountered here that I'd never heard of before, so I had to do a little research, which was great!  The name "Brocken Spectre," unusually for these ghosts, is mainly used by people who understand exactly what causes the phenomenon:  An optical illusion resulting from backscattering opposite a light source and the way shadows ride billowing clouds, most commonly seen from mountaintops by hikers looking down out of sunlight into cloudbanks below.  Local weather conditions make this a relatively common occurence on Brocken itself (a lonely mountain in Germany) but it also contributes to the legend of Am Fear Liath Mor, the Grey Man of Ben MacDhui, on a well-suited Scottish mountain, and can appear in various other locations - like the one in Spain where the photograph above was taken.

(Coleridge, the quoted poet, was obviously aware of the real nature of this phenomenon, but it should be noted that the full poem excerpted above could be read as though it were addressed to a ghost!  He is also of course most famous for what amounts to a ghost story in rhyme - or rather, in Rime.)

I came across this while trying to decide if the Grey Man of Ben MacDhui counted as a ghost or not, and couldn't resist (and that research, in turn, was inspired by Brian's name for Bean a Sidhe and a childhood memory of a really scary book). Sometimes the Internet is a good thing.