Races, Units, Buildings

[occasionalplayer]

Horsebowmen vs. Centaurs - aren't centaurs too weak?
They cost 50 % more, have 2 more ranged attack, but - 1 armor less, one MP less and 2 ammo less. For the intended use (ranged attacks while not getting hit by melee), horsebowmen are often superior. Does the +2 attack justify 50% higher cost and another building requirement despite the drawbacks?
BTW, Astrologer, Adamantium and Eldritch Weapon seems by  far the fastest way to clear out most nodes early in the game. Just throw in Warlord and Barracks and maybe Life if you absolutely like, and you can crack almost everything that isn't missile immune or invisible. And some missile immune units are still killable in melee.

[GermanJoey]

Centaurs also have +2 hp per unit, IIRC. They're not really so fragile as their low armor would suggest. And yeah, that extra attack becomes a big deal, especially with the ease of access of Adamantium with a Myrror start, because it's a lot easier to punch through the higher armor of various fantastic units guarding neutrals and high-end normal units guarding cities. I've won an Impossible game with massed Centaurs as my primary offense until pretty late in the game.

[Seravy]

Yes, +2 attack is really that much. It extends the amount of armor the unit can still damage effectively by 2.
They also have +1 health though that's not very relevant on a fast ranged unit.

Horsebowmen are designed to be above average units - Nomads excel at that sort of thing. Centaurs are merely average, beastmen are not a race that specializes in bows.

Horsebowmen might be borderline overpowered, centaurs are fine as is.

[zitro1987]

Horsebowmen might be borderline overpowered, centaurs are fine as is.

Maybe that's what it is - the 4 ranged power of horsebowmen combined with everything else make them somewhat unbalanced units for the race (or overpowered). Maybe they need to go back down to 3 if they keep the meager 40 cost (didn't they have 3 ranged in earlier mod versions) or bring their cost up to 50 (not really that high for a stable unit, it is 100 for wolf raiders)

[Seravy]

Horsebowmen might be borderline overpowered, centaurs are fine as is.

Maybe that's what it is - the 4 ranged power of horsebowmen combined with everything else make them somewhat unbalanced units for the race (or overpowered). Maybe they need to go back down to 3 if they keep the meager 40 cost (didn't they have 3 ranged in earlier mod versions) or bring their cost up to 50 (not really that high for a stable unit, it is 100 for wolf raiders)

Wait, if Horsebowmen are 4 then Centaurs are only +1 better.
The unit is certainly strong but I'm not sure if the race would work well otherwise. No food buildings mean you can't have as many units as other races so you have to rely on horsebowmen's mobility. I could see a cost increase to 45 maybe, probably not 50.

[zitro1987]

Based on 3.03c (viewing through MoMTweaker), a horsebowman (40 cost/1upk) has the following:
Recruit: 4 figures, 4 melee, 4 ranged, 2 defense, 7 resistance, 3X4=12 hp, 5 move, 8 arrow shots, 1 scout, no abilities
Veteran: 4 figures, 6 melee, 6 ranged, 3 defense, 8 resistance, 3X4=12hp
Elite: 4 figures, 6 melee, 6 ranged, 4 defense, 9 resistance, 4X4=16hp

Obviously, they make even their excellent swordsmen (and even pikemen) kind of obsolete due to their versatility, movement, high resistance, and cost effectiveness ratio. Something has got to give - I think reducing ranged by 1 or increasing cost by 5-10 may do it.

[Domon]

Well, i think that a perfectly balanced unit is a bit boring. This kind of game is better when there are "somewhat op" strategies that still have weak spots and must contend with an opponent's own op strategy, rather than when everything is perfectly balanced at all stages.

[GermanJoey]

Horsebowmen are fine balance-wise. Yes, they're very very good relative to other units in their tier. However, Nomads need Horsebowmen to be good because they need to be compensated for having the worst growth rate and the worst production out of all races in the entire game, and because of this tend to also have a terrible economy for a very long time. This means that Nomads will take a long time to get to Rangers and Griffins. They need something powerful early to help them get to the late game, and that's the Horsebowman.

[Seravy]

This kind of game is better when there are "somewhat op" strategies that still have weak spots

I don't think Horsebowmen are weak to anything unless you mean the race as a whole which is weak against food reduction.

However, Nomads need Horsebowmen to be good because they need to be compensated for having the worst growth rate and the worst production

I still disagree with this statement because it assumes you build your granary, forester's guild and farmer's market early. Which I usually don't, except for Elves.
I agree the race needs good horsebowmen, but to compensate for the lack of food production.

[GermanJoey]

You should build those early whenever you can, those buildings are super important.