DaveV talks like a pirate, me hearties!

[DaveV]

At this point, 'best military civ in the game' is either a function of demographics, or a function of magical abilities.  Which both point to Ellimist's Balseraphs, not Dreylin.

A valid point. jalepeno is also scary, and I'm lucky not to have a border with Bob.

FWIW, I'm ok with this approach.  Getting started ASAP matters more than most other factors.  Religion spread is exponential but the initial bottleneck is a pain.  Culture on a border is a handy thing, too, especially since you seem disinclined to invade (although if I ever talk you around on that front, having a Zealot producer near the front lines is also handy ).

That is...assuming you're able to overcome that sunk cost objection, and immediately put the Sea Haven on hold for a good long while .  Saving time doesn't help if you spend the next four turns finishing up the current project.

Yes, immediate temple is the plan, followed by a bunch of Zealots.

On a more general note, I see a lot of cities working on moderate to low priority infrastructure.  Sea Havens, Lighthouses, Elder Council.  They're not bad investments (except maybe the Elder Council) but I'm not sure they're the highest priority items right now either.  Some things that I would rate highly:

Can I get you to establish some ferry services?  The way this map is looking, Galleys are basically never going to obsolete.  Fast, high cargo capacity, decent damage potential.  In the short term we want them to speed up workers/settlers/garrisons/missionaries.  In the longer term, we will absolutely need them for logistical support of any wars we fight.

I think I've already done this. I've already dropped off one settler with a galley, and have second on board ready to be dropped off next turn. My second galley explored the eastern sea between Dreylin and Ellimist, and is now on its way to explore the sea west of Swivel Gun. I would bet dollars to doughnuts that no one else has two galleys.

On the infrastructure question: Sea Havens are a big contributor toward keeping my economy afloat, and they're really cheap for me because of EXP. Maybe the Elder Council was a waste of hammers, but I was looking for a second GP pump. The lighthouse was to open up the Great Lighthouse wonder: you can't prod me to build wonders and criticize me for trying to do just that.

I think we could use a few more warriors.  Preferably grouped into fast response groups, maybe even embarked on galleys, plus a couple more in each city on the Balseraph front.  We could also use some scouts, tripwire/border watchers, and some warriors ready to upgrade when the Siege Workshop comes in.

Working on this also. My mobility warrior is on his way to the Ellimist border to do some scouting, Brace of Pistols just built a scout who will run down to the jalepeno border, and my other scout is finally in position to explore some Dreylin territory. Having vision of approaching trouble would allow me the time to organize a galley-borne reinforcement/counterattack. Just parking some warriors on a galley is not going to happen; unit maintenance is already a significant expense.

Can I get you to prebuild some workboats?  Up til now, cities have pretty much had to build their own pirate harbors, but now we have a presence on all our border seas.  Really want the settler you have almost done to have a Pirate Harbor the turn it's founded.  This might help paper over the worker shortage, too  

Working on it.

Basically I'm asking for some empire-wide flexibility.

Working on that, too, but expansion is still my main priority.

Another general question:  What's the plan for the next five turns?  Next fifteen?  It kind of feels like you're drifting, just letting each city do its own thing, building whatever seems to be available.  I'd much rather work backwards: pick a goal, and focus the empire on whatever is required to meet that goal.  I see several possiblities:

1.  REX!  10 more cities ASAP!  This would require you start by scouting and dotmapping, then work backward to the logistics for garrisons, transport, settlers and workers and workboats.  Could be a good option because we have so much resource-happiness and a lush map.

This is the plan.

2.  Tech beeline.  I don't even know what you're researching next, let alone any sort of beeline.  I don't like this one quite as much.  Generally you want to get the tech to support your other plans, tech isn't a plan in itself.

Horseback riding is next, then either Warfare if it looks like I can enable the Form of the Titan (16/20 at the moment), or straight to Trade. As long as my trading partners don't cancel open borders, another trade route would be an economic bonanza. Need Smelting for +1 to workshops, Priesthood for Cultists, and some magic, but economy first.

3.  War!  Pick a target, scout them out, plan to invade when you hit chariots.  Figure out the logistics: galleys, Siege Workshop location, prebuilding warriors and saving up the cash.  I feel like we could hit someone with 20-30 chariots by T110, which would be enough to absorb a weak civ (Dreylin) or cripple a strong one (Ellimist, Jalepeno).  I could see this also getting us 10 more cities pretty quickly, cities that don't have to start at size 1...

If Dreylin and jalepeno keep providing me with trade income, peace seems like a good plan (and, hopefully, they won't want to attack a valuable economic partner). I'm still hoping to find Q, with his seven cities and tasty shrine. Other city counts for reference: jalepeno and Ellimist: 10; Dreylin: 9 (underusing his EXP trait there), Me: 14.

4.  Specialize some cities.  Pick a wonder and plot how to grab it.  Make a military pump city.  Get some more national wonders built.  Pick out what you're *not* going to build in each city and plan the build order.  Build the workers needed to make sure they're only working improved tiles (I didn't realize til just now how many unimproved forest tiles we're working...at least get Archery and mills if you're not going to chop them into mines.

I'm trying to maximize the output of my skimpy worker force. Mining a forested hill gives +1 hammer for five turns of worker investment; workshopping a bare plains or grassland gives +2 hammers and +1 commerce for the same five worker turns (and -1 food, but that's not a problem for most of my cities). Eventually I'll chop out all those forests; I'm not a fan of lumbermills because they take a ridiculous number of worker turns and leave a defensive tile for unfriendly units to occupy.

*****

General response: the depth of this game is built on choosing between competing options. It's impossible to do everything, and I try to do the best with what I'm given.

[DaveV]

I'm with Mardoc on the galleys, given the map you have, they'll be a great presence, load up a few units, drop on a city, raze, run away. Rinse and repeat.

Oh and route four probably should be done no matter what plan you're gunning for. A city that doing nothing but gunning out units is handy in any version of Civ 4, but with the slavery nerf in EitB it is imperative really to have one. Brace of Pistols looks a good candidate for that. Regarding a GP city I'm thinking Dead Mans Chest, and either the capital or Hook Hands can do wonder duty if you've a want for a few. Secondary unit producers are probably Crow's Nest and Shoulder Parrot.

You ninja'd this in while I was responding to Mardoc. Yes, a military pump is a high priority, but having a large standing army is the road to economic ruin. Wooden Leg is the top contender for military pump, since it's my only non-coastal city. I'll probably have to fight someone eventually, but my goal for the near future is to look prickly and keep flopping down cities.

[Mardoc]

Hmm. Maybe what would calm me down isn't for you to change your plans, but rather to tell me what they are . It sounds like you were mostly already doing what I want, just not in public. Mostly would like to see a post or two describing dotmap and settler logistics. Although I think you mentioned travelling for work somewhere else on RB, so I realize I may be asking for more time than you have.

I did forget that Sea Havens are Expansive-boosted, and given that you're generally working a bunch of sea tiles anyway, that works out. Plus IIRC they boost workboats and galleys, which you'll want oodles of.

On the galleys: I don't care how they stack up compared to other civs, I care how they stack up compared to your needs. Was mostly responding to the recent debate about ferrying the Zealot vs exploring: my gut reaction was 'why not both!'

On unit maintenance costs, fortunately that will tend to decline somewhat as the empire's population increases. I'm also glad to see the Power graph; if you're leading with approximately 1.5 warriors/city, then no one is thinking invasion just yet. I think eventually you will want an army on galleys but maybe you're right that shouldn't be quite yet.

[DaveV]

The turn opens with a middle finger from Ellimist:



Ha ha. I actually consider this a good sign. If he really wanted to attack, he'd just do it instead of hooting and hitting the ground with tree branches. Maybe what he's trying to say is, "Please pillage my tiles"?

Did I hear a request for a dotmap?





That's my mobility warrior 2N1E of Grog. So I really could pillage his pigs next turn.





Since I've been complaining about expenses, here they are:



The log shows TBS building his hero unit. Countdown to FotT: 26, 25, 24, ...



Note that my guy won against the C3 lion, which was not a foregone conclusion. We love the Monarch saves me three coins/turn, so yay for small RNG favors.

Demos, since I haven't shown them for a while. Barely behind golden age guy in production and GNP; barely behind Mr. Sanitation in crop yield.



Finally, the power graph is very interesting: both jalepeno and Dreylin dipped.



Are there a couple hot wars out there? I could see if Dreylin and jalepeno were at war, and they aren't. Maybe it's just barbs, although that's a pretty big hit for Dreylin.

[DaveV]

Turn 87, in which the RNG smiles upon me:



Yeah, buying the Great Lighthouse for 81 gold is totally balanced. The engineer even materialized in the right city. But gift horse, mouth.

Ellimist offered white peace, but I declined. It turns out that pillaging is not a good idea, though:



I retreated back behind the river.

The theme for the rest of the turn is exploration. I found Q:



Some more Dreylin cities:



And yet another Dreylin city:



jalepeno's golden age is finally over:



And two great people were born the hard way.

[Khan]

Two? Is it just coincidence that another Great Engineer was born with the same name as yours?

Thanks for the update.

[DaveV]

Two? Is it just coincidence that another Great Engineer was born with the same name as yours?

Yes. Confusingly, Bareke is one of the entries on the list of possible names for great engineers, as well as starring in the event I just had. Since his appearance in the log occurs in the middle of jalepeno's turn, I'm sure that Bareke went to him. The sage must have gone to someone between jalepeno and me in the turn order, so: Q, Ellimist, Aurorarcher, or TBS.

[DaveV]

More exploration:



He has a settling party 2SE of Mon Cherie, almost certainly headed northeast to the sheep. If he goes far enough north, he'll invalidate my last port city on the Treasure Island lake.



That's a lot of stuff in E53.





Ellimist's borders popped after I ended turn, which I think means he must have culture bombed me.



Demos after ending turn, so including the +6 commerce from Deruptus:



Log shows someone reeling in the Military Strategy Great Commander:



17/20 on my Titan candidate after killing the goblin.

[DaveV]

Here's the city list. I'm trying to dial back the infrastructure and crank out some settlers.



Still exploring:



Send some of those zealots my way, Q! I'd be happy to accept them.



Found TBS's borders. I should make contact next turn, if I'm reading the terrain right.



Lots of well-promoted guys wandering around here. But I'm hoping jalepeno won't move against me because we now have a clear #1:



Ellimist has started his endless golden age, and will presumably use it to power through the magic techs. I just hope he loses Raiders before he starts building adepts.

The graphs are truly frightening:







The one-turn border pop from Heron Throne gives me a view of the north shore:



Hmmm, there's a sheep where I was hoping to build a city. I may just build there anyway; plains hill sheep is not the greatest tile in the game.

[DaveV]

Turn 90, the turn in which I build the Great Lighthouse.



Except Ellimist aced me out. That sucks.

I could have used my now-redundant engineer to bulb Smelting, but a golden age seemed like a better use.

I made contact with TBS, as expected:



I offered open borders, while inspecting his resources and city count:





I explored some more of Q's territory after promoting my warrior to Mobility I. Note the jalepeno borders between us; I guess I won't be putting a city there after all.



F4 screens show that Ellimist just war/peaced TBS. If we don't hang together, we will hang separately, guys.







Graphs:













Victory screen (fair share of population is 12.5%):