Tower?

[Seravy]

And I think its enough faster that stronger towers will quickly put Myrran back to being worth 3 picks for the human player, which I don't think you want.

That is not really about how many picks Myrran is worth. It's really subjective but I still believe Myrran is worth more than 2 picks - at the very least it certainly did before the whole 2 Myrran wizards thing - to put it simply, having to share a plane with fewer opponents and being in the group that gets the better start is an immeasurable advantage that cannot really be quantified as picks.
What the cost of this retort is about is, how much is affordable in the system. 3 picks are not. That would mean a Myrran wizard can never, ever play 10 books, and the options would become far too limited. Technically you still have 9 picks that can be spend a few hundred thousand ways, but in reality, you'd avoid most of those as "not enough picks remaining for books". Want to play a Myrran wizard with Guardian and 2 realms? Too bad, you can't even have 4 books in both realms anymore which is the bare minimum where I'd call a wizard playing two realms - 3 or fewer is just splashing a secondary color into a mono-color strategy.

I also love the idea of the myrran wizard being some sort of late game boss, but I literally don't think I've ever experienced it. (I very rarely wipe wizards out early though). Instead the towers break, the AI fight a bit, and you end up with 2-3 strong AI with presence on both planes, and 1-2 very weak AI that don't matter (which could be from either plane but very rarely have a presence on both planes.)

Yes, this is why I made this topic. Myrran wizards used to be the big late game boss but...it seems to happen less nowadays somehow.
I suspect the "no +25% monsters/difficulty in lairs" change might be the culprit by weakening towers on high difficulty, or simply the AI is much better at using the towers (and astral gates) so the two planes mix faster. I don't know.

[Nelphine]

Right but to be clear - I've never experienced it. Not recently, not in earlier patches, not in the original game. Its a great romantic ideal, but I don't think its ever been realistic.

These days I think you could do it if myrror has one opponent, and you make the towers very strong. The problem is, simply by taking the myrran retort, you remove this. And with arcanus always having multiple wizards, you never get a late game arcanus boss. So if you DO make towers strong enough for an human atcanus wizard to encounter this ideal, that means a wizard who takes the Myrran retort is far better off - they simply don't get that late game boss.

That's why I'm making it about the myrran pick. If an arcanus human fights a super strong late game myrror wizard, and a myrran human has no equivalent, then the myrran retort makes the game much much easier - which either shouldn't happen, or it should be balanced by the cost of the retort. For purposes of this discussion, I'm disregarding the choice of it simply not happening. Which means it has to be balanced by the cost of the retort.

I agree with you that myrran shouldn't be increased in price. That means myrran becomes a must have pick on higher difficulties, just to avoid the late game super wizard. Therefore, the whole idea is a bad one.

[Domon]

What if choosing myrran as a player weakens the towers? Is that feasible?

[Nelphine]

No, weakening towers is still an advantage for anyone on myrror. So you'd have hardest game when arcanus, then, not only is the game easier because you're on myrror, the game would be even easier because the towers are weaker.

You could make tower strength an option like minerals or climate. But I don't think you have space for that.

[Domon]

i'd swap a tower or tower+various lairs power setting for the climate one

[Arnuz]

Right but to be clear - I've never experienced it. Not recently, not in earlier patches, not in the original game. Its a great romantic ideal, but I don't think its ever been realistic.

These days I think you could do it if myrror has one opponent, and you make the towers very strong. The problem is, simply by taking the myrran retort, you remove this. And with arcanus always having multiple wizards, you never get a late game arcanus boss. So if you DO make towers strong enough for an human atcanus wizard to encounter this ideal, that means a wizard who takes the Myrran retort is far better off - they simply don't get that late game boss.

That's why I'm making it about the myrran pick. If an arcanus human fights a super strong late game myrror wizard, and a myrran human has no equivalent, then the myrran retort makes the game much much easier - which either shouldn't happen, or it should be balanced by the cost of the retort. For purposes of this discussion, I'm disregarding the choice of it simply not happening. Which means it has to be balanced by the cost of the retort.

I agree with you that myrran shouldn't be increased in price. That means myrran becomes a must have pick on higher difficulties, just to avoid the late game super wizard. Therefore, the whole idea is a bad one.

I'm experiencing it right now as I've done a 1.31 game to remind myself of how it actually was (as opposed to rose tinted glasses effect)

Mix of books, elves started on an island, did some sprites shenanigans and settled the only continent, banished 2 wizards from it and facing the last arcanus one - nature/life lawful perfectionist coming with the good old magic immune paladin and some nomads. She has 1/5 of my cities and only one node against my five but has equal power. Sure likes to cast cracks call, and I swear the AI cheats on cracks call chances too...

When out of nowhere the myrran wizard breaks 3-4 towers with behemoths and basilisks and fire giants... Power off the charts half a game ago.This is going to be interesting! I've actually had to divert my 2 attack stacks (mostly a mix of flyers: griffons, pegasi, some summons) to go back towards these towers and see if I can block his penetration.

All of this makes me (merely for flavour and nostalgia) support the notion of a 3 picks myrran with reinforced towers. Being "not worth it" for the human, who "needs to design the strategy around the pick" are reasons for this rather than against in my book - they make the choice more challenging for the expert player.

[Nelphine]

While that may happen in 1.31, right now, I'm finding the AI on impossible in current experimental rarely ever breaks a single tower, let alone more than one. Instead, I'm free to break all 6 when I want. (Admittedly, this is my impossible strategy, which means I'm breaking all 6 around 1410. And I'm considering changing my strategy and breaking them before I banish the second atcsnus wizard, so 1405 or so.)

This means making the towers stronger will just emphasize my control of the towers rather than making the myrran wizard more dangerous. Instead of an occasional game with the AI breaking a tower, I will always get to break the towers. And neutrals just aren't strong enough. There could be 9 sky drakes guarding the tower and it wouldn't noticeably slow me down.