Unimpressive Spells (any?) Thread

[zitro1987]

We're often celebrating the power of spells and sharing exciting spell combos. Whenever debating the power of spells, we tend to concentrate on whether they are 'too powerful' and we're all guilty of this despite this recent post from Seravy:

-Every spell should be more than just useful, and feel "impressive". They shouldn't be overpowered on the whole, but they should be great at their intended function. 

Maybe we should look at things in a different perspective. 

* Are there spells that are statistically unimpressive?
* Are there spells that are thematically or simply feel unimpressive and/or redundant? (I think there's quite a bit here, with similar 'weaker' spells simply because a realm doesn't specialize in that type)

By unimpressive, I don't mean 'skeletons can barely handle swordsmen, so unimpressive, might as well leave them as garrison'  (that is an impressive role!).



Life:
*Bless (B) - not technically unimpressive, but could expand and include poison - no early non-death spells protect against this? Helps make spell less 'counter to specific realm'
*Exorcise (C ) - Unimpressive resist-or-die. Maybe it could also include chaos-channeled units. Maybe it could involve an added -4 instead of -3 penalty. At its current state, targeting an undead feels like an added -1 petrify or a cheaper banish. 
*Unicorn (C+) - I see the point, but slightly increasing cost and allowing it to have 1 more melee can also help it have an 'impressive' function in combat (teleporting and hitting ranged units)
*Divine Order (C ) - the self-inflicted wound of higher costs for some own spells make it feel unimpressive for me. 10 maintenance too. Too tactical


Sorcery:
*Nagas (C ) - feels unimpressive  to me, I think it's the 2 movement that does it


Nature:
*Earth Lore (C+) - not necessarily superior to sending spearman, swordsman and a exploring magic spirit around during first 15-20 turns. Casting a few war bears will do more. Suggest bringing cost down to 25-30
*Water Walking (B-) - I'd probably bring down the cost even more to 20-25. It's often more economical getting a trireme for basic needs.
*Ice Bolt (C+) - This spell is thematically boring and feels unimpressive with fairy dust occasionally superior. I like what you did with aether sparks having a secondary effect. Maybe ice bolt can freeze a unit for 1 turn, or halve movement points.
*Crack's Call (C+) - a bit desperate spell and cost-ineffective, would prefer it if it dealt 25 damage or cost 21 to combat indestructible hero strategy
*Stone Giant and Gorgons - What's up with 9 resistance? They're ok otherwise, but Stone Giant could use less research cost and/or higher melee.
*Great Wyrm (B+) - I think the low armor is a bit harsh, might need 5 more hp to compensate

Chaos:
Disrupt (C-) - no explanation needed. I wish it destroy walls around spot as well.
Gargoyles (C+) - research cost too high for a unit in the level of giant spiders, etc
Chimera (C+) - not as good as statistics and upkeep of 6 indicate, always targeted with curses
Doom Bat (C+) - simply doesn't fight very well, get's killed quite easily by so many units.

Death:
*Weakness (theme unimpressive) - resistance-based attack power reduction already exists elsewhere in other realms and at low cost as well. Why not 'always works'? I mean, it's not like a superior higher-resistance unit will be purely crippled by 3 less attack. A more exciting but more difficult option is to have it alternate as -3 attack and -3 armor, like warp creature, but unresistable.

[Seravy]

These are my thoughts :

Nature's Cures - units heal on their own on the overland map so it merely speeds the process up a few turns. While it's a very powerful spell, I consider it boring. It's not particularly good for game balance either - it allows the raze and continue tactic to work even better. Finally, the AI cannot even cast it (and will never be able to), which is sad.
Gorgons - I considered these amazing until I saw Hadriex beat a stack of 8 of them by two castings of Creature Binding and a bunch of ranged units. Maybe the resistance really needs to be higher? They are absolutely brutal in melee so they work as a player unit, but for the AI they aren't that good.
Awareness - Amazing for the player but when the AI casts it, "hey, the AI has 1 fewer useful very rares, lucky!". Not what the player is supposed to think when the AI casts a very rare global enchantment.
Psionic Blast - Defense ignoring damage is cool but this costs more than healing and deals less than 5 average damage, as well as being usually inferior to casting Phantom Warriors. Only scenario when this spell manages to impress is when a stack of magicians spam it. A perfect example where balanced and impressive manages to be mutually exclusive, and in this case, better to go with balanced.
Conjure Road - Offcolor effect that is powerful but doesn't impress. "tremble in fear, mortals, my ROADS are here to destroy you!". lol.
Creature Binding - Most really good targets are immune (high res or illusion immunity) which is disappointing, and it really only is a Banish + summoning a new creature on your side (yes, a stolen Stone Giant is better than a new Phantom Beast but not by that much).
Disrupt - Leaves the impression of being the least important spell in the game - despite the fact that it's pretty effective. Eliminating the gate wall tile leaves every enemy unit at -2 shields if you make sure you only fight them when they move to and stay at that tile - and a -2 to all effect for just 5 MP at common is actually extremely good.
Fire Elemental - For a unit with 12 swords and 10 hit points, this manages to lose to swordmsmen, if they have a magical weapon. Kinda lame. If they don't have it though, it can wipe out an entire stack of 9 alone so it's certainly a good enough spell.
Eldritch Weapon - Weak spell with a marginal effect in a realm that doesn't need it at all. Left in as a necessity as the realm literally doesn't need any new spells to replace it with something else.
Angel - Pretty much a Stag Beetle, a shaman and a holy bonus 1 in one. For 400 mana. And with a resistance equal to Guardian Spirit. I could see this being bumped up to 5 movement and/or 12 resistance. (The realm is supposed to be bad at summoning though)
Weakness - Disables early units amazingly well, but thematically unimpressive, as mentioned above.
Annihilate - Despite being the best single target instant kill spell, it just fails to stand out among all the other impressive Death spells. Killing a single target is by definition, not as impressive as killing multiple targets or stealing a unit.

I think that's about it. Most of these are fine as they are, just fail to stand out - a few might need buffs though.

[Nelphine]

Looking at both lists:

I think unicorns could use a buff (+1 melee strength).
I think bless and excorcise are fine and make use of both.
I think divine order borders on the overpowered. I LOVE this spell. Not quite Aether Binding level, but close.

Nagas are fantastic. They aren't super great for the human player, but they are great for the AI - partially because it's hard to actually resist poison.

I agree Earth Lore could be cheaper.

Water Walking is absofreakinglutely amazing. When ai are swarming you with warships, it's very easy for them to kill your doomstacks while en route if they're forced to use ship/floating island transport.

Ice Bolt: I have no real idea. It seems fine? This one is a bland one to me. (But so is fairy dust.)
Cracks Call: Supposedly to fight heroes, but getting a wraithform item is so unbelievably common that all it really does is force you to use that item. I dunno. I'd increase it back to 50% chance of success.
Stone Giants and Gorgons could both use higher resistance (10 and 11?).
Great Wyrm: I'd give them more armour. Actually let's do something different. Give them +1 to defend baseline.

Disrupt seems fine.
Gargoyles.. I rarely find it's actually feasible to use this. I'd increase melee by 1? I dunno. I'm bad with chaos.
Chimera/Doom Bat - very effective at what they do, but maintenance does seem high.

Weakness (and shatter) are both extremely unimpressive.

Nature's Cures has been called super powerful by some, so I'd say it's in a good spot.
Awareness doesn't even seem good for the human as very rare. I would hate to get it ever. I think it should actually do something as well exploration (like giving pathfinding to all units or something; given land linking exists, I don't think this would be overpowered.)
Psionic Blast seems similar to Ice Bolt above. I think it's fine?
Conjure Road has been discussed elsewhere. I don't think we can change it.
Creature Binding is like a poor mans animate dead. I think it's fine. Sorcery doesn't need the best of EVERYTHING.
Fire Elemental.. make it 2 figures with slightly reduced stats (10 attack/7 or 8 hp)?
Eldritch Weapon - fine. I like it.
Angel - I would not increase movement, but would be ok with resistance being bumped (life seems like a high resistance realm).
Annihilate: Wave of Despair makes this look so piddling. I think Annihilate is fine though, just Wave of Despair is fantastic.

[Seravy]

Crack's Call : Heroes aside, this spell can kill pretty much any normal unit without a resistance roll. 50% would make it on par with Annihilate or even better - it ignores Magic Immunity, cannot be resisted and kills all figures not just those that fail a roll.
For heroes, it does what it is supposed to, punishes inexperienced and/or unprepared players (or AI), without actually rendering heroes worthless. (If this, or any spell, could reliably kill heroes, they'd be unplayable, as they are unique, very expensive units. (Note that I do not consider normal damage as killing heroes because they can be revived - not true for this spell.))

Unicorns are tricky - they might feel a bit underpowered, but Life has so many ways to buff them (Holy Bonus, Heavenly Light, Lionheart, Prayer, Soul Linker heroes, Supreme Light, heroes with other "all units gain" effects) they can still be amazing...and more importantly, you get +2 Resistance to All, that's a worthwhile effect even on its own. I prefer to err on the cautious side for this, as Life is the "bad at summoning" realm - their summons should not be that good on their own anyway.

Agreed about Divine Order being strong, it might even be more than just "borderline overpowered".

For Stone Giants and Gorgons, the idea is to cast Survival Instinct for extra resistance, but probably at least one of them should have more resistance on its own. I think Gorgons, as they cost more, and are more vulnerable in general.


I tested Gargoyles - they are pretty good and by far the best early spell you can have as a Chaos wizard. They are durable, resistant, flying, cheap, low maintenance, and combo well with Wall of Fire and Immolation both.

Angel - There actually are two good reasons why movement would be a major improvement to the unit.
1. Holy Bonus assumes you are moving it together with an army. At 3 moves, it's too slow to follow your best armies - Paladins, Elven Lords, Pegasai, Griffons, Unicorns, etc all move 4 or 5.
2. Exorcise is a melee combat ability. If the unit is too slow to engage the enemy fantastic unit, the ability is much less effective.

Great Wyrm - I can't judge this, as I never had the spell or when I did, I never used it. Behemoth for regeneration, or Colossus for Illusion Immunity were almost always more important than merging to counter ranged units.

[Nelphine]

I guess my disdain of crack's call (and my not caring about angel movement) is that I use halberdiers so often - and most of the time, halberdiers with 4-5 hp per figure. Crack's call can't wipe out a single unit (heck with Exaltation, crack's call barely does half the damage of the unit), and angels are faster than them anyway.

[Domon]

Actually crack's call does a minimum of 5 damage per figure OR 21