Astrologer and Mana Focusing

[Seravy]

I believe these retorts have problems.

Astrologer
-Double power from nodes is scaled by game settings. The retort is more beneficial on higher and worse on lower node power settings. No other retort scales by map settings and I don't think any should.
-Power from nodes is highly luck dependent on the early game. This retort doubles this luck factor. Node Mastery has been the most broken retort in the original game and this is the same thing. Effect is fine in the late game where everyone has nodes but broken in the early game.
-Combining this with Archmage amplifies the benefits of both way too much, and causes a chain reaction : Higher starting casting skill -> obtain node earlier by summons or spell+spearmen tactic and no countering effect -> node produces double power -> power spent on skill is boosted by 50%, resulting in about ~30% more skill -> casting skill is boosted by 50% again. Overall result  = 2*1.3*1.5 = ~4 times higher overland casting skill than normal from power obtained from nodes, and these nodes are will be obtained twice as fast. (and yes, these numbers are on par with or even beat Impossible AI advantage - they get 2.5 times the overland casting skill and power income but no combat skill bonus)

Mana Focusing

-Accelerates early game too much - mana available is more than 100% higher. This results in getting earlier nodes, neutral cities or other resources, snowballing into a massive advantage. I'm under the impression we don't want this kind of advantage type in the game.
-Effect is redundant. Increasing power base (Cult Leader, Astrologer), or reducing costs (Conjurer, Chaneller, Specialist) or obtaining mana from other sources (Alchemy) all achieve the same goal as increasing mana/power ratio.
-Effect is multiplicative with all the effects it is redundant with. You can obtain more power, convert it into more mana and then spend less on spells for a massively amplified effect - not only is this a potential threat to balance, but encourages retort stacking.
-Early game effect cancels out the main drawback of playing few books with many retorts - having a low power and mana income.
-Retort is highly self-contradicting. To spend lots of mana, you need to have a high casting skill and high rarity spells worth spending on - and obtaining those means you are keeping your mana slider low as you need research and skill up.
-Retort is way too boring.

Possible solutions :
Astrologer - turn "double power" into "+20 power". Fixes the map setting dependency.
Astrologer - make it mutually exclusive with Archmage. You can pick one or the other to avoid the"chain reaction".
Astrologer - Remove "double power from nodes" entirely, and either reduce the cost of the retort, or add "Each population in the wizard's cities produces an additional X power" effect or "All power obtained by the wizard is increased by X%" or something entirely different.
Mana Focusing - Remove the retort and add a new retort with the effect "Each population in the wizard's cities produces X power", or " All power obtained by the wizard is increased by X%" or something entirely different - preferably something that can replace Mana Focusing's role to have a late game retort that boosts mana/power.


A few possible examples that could be done :

Retort 1 - The wizard has +50% overland casting skill. Each population in the wizard's cities produces 1/2 power. Costs 2 picks.
Retort 2 - All power obtained from all sources is increased by 20%.

or

Retort 1 - The wizard has +50% overland casting skill and is immune to the countering effect of nodes. Costs 1 pick.
Retort 2 - All power obtained from all sources is increased by 40%. Costs 2 picks.

or

Retort 1 - The wizard has +50% overland casting skill and is immune to the countering effect of nodes. Costs 1 pick.
Retort 2 - All population in the wizard's cities produces 1 power. Costs 2 picks.

or

Retort 1 - The wizard has +50% overland casting skill, obtains +20 power from nodes and is immune to the countering effect of nodes. This retort is mutually exclusive with Archmage (a wizard cannot have both). Costs 2 picks.
Retort 2 - All population in the wizard's cities produces 0.4 power. Costs 1 pick.

[Catwalk]

Mana Focusing: +50% mana produced
Astrologer: Cost reduced to 1 pick, node power bonus removed

Part of the problem with Astrologer is that it's a big combo with itself. More spells + easier node fights = more units early on with better ways of using them = faster nodes and you get more from them. With the above simple fix, it's a useful retort that's nowhere near as focused.

I suggest we keep the fix simple, we know the problem and don't need to be creative.

[Seravy]

Mana Focusing: +50% mana produced

While I probably haven't said this explicitly, the percentage bonus STILL contributes to the early game. Sure, it will no longer be a +10 to 15 mana, but it'll still be a +5 to 12. So that approach cannot fix the early game problem completely and this doesn't fix the other three problems at all.

Astrolger is ok without the node bonus - I'll be sad to see node mastery go but I have to agree it's an inherently unbalanced concept which was the most overpowered retort in the original game as well - the game will be better without that sort of effect.

Considering the much more limited use of overland casting skill (and the wasted amounts between turns as you cannot start a new spell using the bonus), a higher amount might be needed? (+66% comes into mind as a first guess but I'm not sure. If we keep the "nodes cannot counter your spells part" it's probably good as 50%. That effect would feel weird in a retort completely unrelated to nodes otherwise, though.)

I think Mana Focusing should be replaced by "all power obtained from all sources increases by X%" and we can make it 2 picks if we want to have a higher bonus.

[Seravy]

The name of the Astrologer retort....is that because it boosts node power, like a conjunction of stars (the events). If that effect goes, the name has to go as well. And I really like the name, probably even more than the effect itself.

Okay, more brainstorming :

Astrologer - The wizard is immune to the countering effect of nodes. Each node owned by a wizard produces an additional 2 power for each year elapsed in the game. 1 pick.

Eliminates the early game luck factor and map settings dependency factor. Fits the theme well - not only does the power of stars affect nodes, but an Astrologer predicts (and being a wizard,  it's not a stretch to say manipulates) the future, so the power becoming stronger as time elapses is a perfect fit. And we don't have any real "late game" retort, as in, retort that actually grows in power over time.

Spellweaver - The wizard gains +50% overland casting skill and +25% power income. This retort is mutually exclusive with Archmage. Costs 2 picks.

So we still have the 50% casting skill retort for 2 picks but it is no longer related to nodes whatsoever, but it comes with the extra "mana" of Mana Focusing except in power. A good pairing as extra skill means extra spending, but the income bonus isn't wasted even if mana is obtained from gold or treasure instead of the bonus, as it can be spent on research or even more skill. Mutually exclusive with Archmage as they amplify each other still (both are a multipler to casting skill) and we really don't want to see wizards with a starting casting skill of 45 - even without Mana Focusing, a good early treasure drop that can fuel this casting skill would be insane (and this pairing on the AI would just be brutal - they sure can afford the mana on high difficulty). Overall, it's a solid standalone choice that makes spell based wizards stronger without being restricted to a specific strategy - no retort stacking needed, unlike archmage+mana focusing.

[Nelphine]

I like those, though spellweaver runs into the problem that its an end game retort, bit due to soellblast, the goal for casting skills is to cast it in one turn - so the closer you get to end game where its supposed to be good, the less it actually does what you want. I LIKE the idea, but I'm not sure it will be any good in practice.

I very much like that version of astrologer.

[Catwalk]

I dislike making any retorts mutually exclusive with others. It breaks with the sleek concept you have now, and it shouldn't be necessary.

Mana Focusing at +50% completely fixes the early game problem, as you then become dependent on how many books you have. If you need high books to get high mana output with Mana Focusing you cannot have many other retorts, so you no longer have a killer early game.

I'm not sure it's a good idea to buff weak nodes further, already they're crazy strong due to the +6 tiles. I think you've overpowered weak nodes with that mechanism, by the way. You way overprice the cost of node defenses. I also wouldn't pick that at a cost of 1 pick, too weak in general.

[Seravy]

I like those, though spellweaver runs into the problem that its an end game retort, bit due to soellblast, the goal for casting skills is to cast it in one turn - so the closer you get to end game where its supposed to be good, the less it actually does what you want. I LIKE the idea, but I'm not sure it will be any good in practice.

I'll try to look into the possibility of making the bonus 50% casting skill work as the "normal" type - the end of turn type is very inconvenient indeed.
If I make it grant "normal" casting skill, but upon entering combat, reduce the "combat skill" of Spellwavers by the bonus amount, that could work. If the end of turn resets "unspent overland skill for the turn" to 50% more than the visible overland skill, that can also work - in this case you won't see the bonus on the Magic screen though.

[zitro1987]

Astrologer - The wizard is immune to the countering effect of nodes. Each node owned by a wizard produces an additional 2 power for each year elapsed in the game. 1 pick.
*Excellent idea. I like it a lot, is easy to understand. It appears to incentivize weaker nodes though, but that's ok.

Spellweaver - The wizard gains +50% overland casting skill and +25% power income. This retort is mutually exclusive with Archmage. Costs 2 picks.
*It's below average for 2 picks. I think keeping the +33% (instead of a +25%) would make it worth 2 picks. +25% is like the original mana focusing which was a horrible pick.
*I like the concept however. Let's keep the high initial power for high-numbered books. Just make it a tad stronger with the percentage.

[Seravy]

AI template changes for the new retorts :

Nature Life primary - Tactician instead of Mana Focusing.
Both realms are good on defense, so +1 defense on units will make them even more durable.
Nature Chaos secondary - Spellweaver instead of Mana Focusing.
Both realms cast a lot of overland spells - both summoning and destructive, so they can use the bonus well. Additional power is a good combo with Armageddon.
Death primary - Spellweaver instead of old Astrologer
"I want more power" is a perfect fit for Death and it had the 50% overland bonus already.


I'm unsure about including Astrologer - it feels a good match for Chaos but they already have Chaneller and Archmage.
I'm also unsure about keeping Chaneller on Chaos - on one side it ensures they never run out of mana in combat, but on the other side, Chaos wizards are the least vulnerable to that tactic - their spells destroy enemy units and end the combat much more effectively than any other realm, so spending is probably far below average. Wizards with poor combat spell options might be a better choice for this retort, as they are more likely to waste all their skill every battle without actually winning it.

[Domon]

what about sneaking in an inquisitor dark brother, something that gives you big bonuses, but you can't make settlers?