Do you think you could acquire Seoul's settler if you were to become suzerain and levy their military? Not that you need to or want to, just wondering what the result would be....
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DP101 prepares to lose (adventure 4 report in-progress) COMPLETE
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(March 26th, 2017, 13:53)gunnerxtr Wrote: Do you think you could acquire Seoul's settler if you were to become suzerain and levy their military? Not that you need to or want to, just wondering what the result would be.... I believe that the levy military option does not affect builders and settlers, so probably not. Would be hilarious though. Also, report should be done in an hour or so, had other things I needed to do.
Surprise! Turns out I'm a girl!
Ok, I should probably start optimising my cities to do nothing other than GP generation, and that means city projects. There is no information online about how much they give, so I'll have to just do the math and test a little. Regardless, I should probably build them everywhere. All I know is that the non-GP yield is generated over time, and the GP points only come at the end.
Upon hitting end turn, I see a message I haven't seen before:  Almost didn't get the screenshot cause of the lag caused by being out of strategic mode, which I was doing because:  Now, that city has a perfect spot for oxford, but right now, I'm not sure if I can afford to take the time to build it over more projects. I end up going for it, it's only 15 turns. In my search to understand projects, I look at the only one that I've put anything in (as ones I start this turn don't update). Industrial Zone logistics claims to produce a small amount of gold, and a lump sum of GP points at the end. The city is producing 8.9 gold/turn from the project, and dividing by my current bonus from Democracy it has a base yield of 6.4. Production from the city is 46.2. I can find no mathematical relationship between the 2 values, or if there is one then the formula is too hard to reverse-engineer from here. The numbers appear to not update in real-time, as I see no change in the value when I switch tiles to give one more production. I will check back next turn and see if there is any change in the numbers. Radio comes in T222, but I don't really need more tourism, only more projects, so I probably won't build the broadcast centres immediately. Electricity next. I get a breakthrough when calculating the yield of a project! The city from last turn grew, and now produces 49.3 production/turn. This bumped the gold yield from the project up to 9.1, which is exactly 7 unmodified. Thus, the gold yield of an industrial zone project is equal to the square root of production. My other city working on projects, this one on commercial hubs, gets an unmodified 15.8 gold/turn, from 46.2 production, which gives a formula of about 1/3rd production equals gold. I think this is probably wrong though, as the numbers don't add up quite right. Hopefully I figure this all out before the end of the game. IBT, Spain declares war on Hattusa. Again, I'll intervene if it looks like the city will fall. On T223, I have 393.6 GE points, and will make 18.8 IBT, which will leave me at 412.4. However, I also have the indusrial zone project finishing, so whatever amount over 412.4 must come from it. Next turn, I end with 478.5. That's 66.1 from the completed project. City's production is unchanged, and if I divide out the bonus yield I get 50, which doesn't match. I don't even know if the yield boost applies to the literal tile yields, or also the points, so dividing it out may well be wrong. It also isn't any kind of multiple of the points/turn, so I don't think I can get a formula out of this. The only thing I can conclude is that commercial projects are probably the best, as they give the most money, and money is basically more GPP. In other news, Hattusa has 3 conquistadors and 2 catapults bearing down on it, I'm distinctly worried. The rest of the spanish army surrounds Mbwila, which does have an encampment but might still be in trouble if I declare a war. Monty finally signs peace! He wants some chocolate, but I'm fine with that. On T266, I do more math, and figure out that the culture from a theatre square project = city's production /4. Spain is being an idiot, and could have capture hattusa earlier, but at this point I think it's only a matter of time. I will declare war next turn, when my culture expands to claim the oil hex on the border so that my builder can make a well on it and disappear, rather than being eaten by a conquistador. In preparation, I upgrade a scout in the area to a ranger for 500 gold, which sounds terrible except for the fact that that's only 2 turns of income. Professional sports comes in T267, cold war next. I get an artist. Getting professional sports actually cuts my culture output a lot, it replaces the doubled culture from buildings with doubled adjacency bonuses, plus a bonus from entertainment districts that I really don't need. Annoying. At this point, I realise that I still don't have the tech to make wells, so I should just move the builder out of the way. Situation:  You can see why I can't wait any longer. But, then I have a problem. Here is the diplo screen:  I would have expected to see a casus belli button, since we have a denounced relationship. But, apparently it isn't there. Then I think, well, maybe I have to denounce him, but there isn't a button for that either. What can I do? Nothing apparently. In trying to piss him off, I demand his only gunpowder, and he... accepts? What is this game? I proceed to go through and demand every single of their resources, and they comply with all of them. What? He won't let me demand a city, but I'm perfectly happy leaving him without any resources at all. He quite rightly denounces me next turn, but he has denounced or been denounced by everyone, so absolutely no one cares. This should probably be banned, but I can't find a list of banned exploits anywhere, so I shrug and carry on. Before ending turn I had 488.1 GM points, and will get 47.1 IBT, as well as completing one commercial project. Thus, final points - 488.1 -47.1 should give me the yield/production for a project. I end up with 602.2 GM points, so the points produced by the project was 67. City's production was 49.5, which gives a ratio of about 1.35 production to points. I have another project finishing next turn to give me more data. Also, electricity finishes, replaceable parts next. I theme an art museum, and regain the ability to fight spain, so I declare war. Look at all this:  So many options! Of course, I go for the protectorate one. The war somehow teleports all his units outside of Hattusa, for no clear reason. I don't remember this happening at Stockholm!. This allows me to instantly kill one conquistador, and the city will get a turn where it doesn't have to deal with those infinite catapults. Quite the standoff going on:  Encampments cannot bombard each other, if you were wondering. Not much happens IBT. I end up with 716.3 GM points (I only needed 660), which comes up to another 67 points. The city had the exact same production though, so I'm not sure it shows anything. I also get a GW, so 38 total GP. The GM gives oil and +2 gold/turn for each improved strategic resource at the destination city. The war is going well. I think the most amusing part of this game is that no one else has ever gotten a GW or GM, because the rate that I generate them makes their cost increase faster than the AI can generate points. Now, time for more exciting math! The theatre square project finishes next turn, and reportedly gives a small amount of GW, GA, and GMus points. For each of those, I have 86.3, 120.9, and 368.9 points, generating 49.1, 38.9, and 20.5 points/turn respectively, putting the expected values at 135.4, 159.8, and 389.4 for the values next turn. Instead, I end up at 168.5, 192.8, and 440.3, for a total increase of 33.1, 33, and 50.9. City again makes 49.3 (and no, I don't know why they all have such similar values), so formula for GW and GA points is 2/3rds of production, and GW is... I dunno. Don't know why it's just o so slightly more. Also, replaceable parts completes, so Combustion next. Given that it made twice as many total points as the other projects, and the money/GPP ratio isn't great (some quick math shows it varying from 9.5 to 7.8 gold per point, and I don't feel like trying to puzzle out the rest of the formula), I will make as many theatre square projects as possible. Hattusa upgrades its horseman to a cavalry, which will help it significantly. The threat is mostly over though, although on the other eastern front I do lose a musket. Need to upgrade a few more of them. Industrial zone in my capital is sabotaged, oh no, it's not like I don't have a million other factories in the area. My ally's missionary and inquisitor spam lets me see most of the internals of the Aztecs:  Apparently, their only cavalry was the one that disappeared. Still, I do like that SW encampment placement on the chokepoint, would be very difficult to attack through there. T234 I get another GE, for 39 total. I also get my first GG from my building of a couple of encampments, as I somehow have 15.7 points/turn. For science, I start a science district project in one of my cities that lacks a theatre square. This city has a different amount of production, so we might see some variance in the numbers. Tesla improves one of my city's factories, making them reach 3 hexes more and gives them 2 more production. Combined with the Toronto bonus, they now reach 12 hexes, insanity. T235, I get a present:  It gives me Rocketry and Computers, and I also unlock Cold War. Advanced flight and Space Race next. Ruhr city is making 80 production/turn, so makes a power plant since its power plants are boosted to help out the other cities. It will be able to reach my entire empire:  See the tiny little powerplant 1E1SE of Kinchassa (ruhr city)? It can reach 12 hexes. See Mbwila, in the extreme northeast of my empire? That's within 11 hexes. This amount of range should be illegal. I get broadway on T236, but forgot to go out of strategic mode before I hit end turn, so no picture. It boosts Space Race. I think I'm safe, so I start putting great works of music in. My 6 unused writers converge on Oxford and Broadway's 3 slots, and will not all be used. A great musician is acquired T238, 40 total GP. IBT, spain wants peace, and will give me a bunch of luxuries, 145 gold, and 45gold/turn, or almost 1500 gold in the end. I take it, they have no army anymore. Space Race and Advanced Flight come in T239, I go back to finish combustion since apparently I switched off of it with 1 turn to go, although I have no memory of that occurring. I also replace skyscrapers with 5 year plan, as I'm not building wonders right now. Rapid deployment next. Also, I discover that the science from campus research grants is slightly less than the square root of the production. I'm at 79 out of 100 needed tourists to win, and I've been deliberately avoiding techs that boost tourism recently, so I should be able to win pretty easily after T250 is past. IBT, Spain tells me to take my army somewhere else, I oblige him. Combustion comes in, Plastics next. No good techs remaining. I get a great writer, 41 generated. T241 I get a great artist and great merchant, 43 generated. I do the math on Science projects, and find out that 618 - 547.9 = 70.1, coming from 50.1 production means that the ratio is 1.4, right? Unless I'm assuming it is multiplication rather than addition and that assumption is incorrect, but I doubt that. Gandhi wants oil and will give me cotton, I take it. I get plastics, Telecommunications next. I'm getting a writer in 8 turns regardless of what I do, so I go for commercial and industrial projects instead. Still figuring out how I'm going to spend my money and faith at the end, with treasury having hit 5.6K and faith 2.2K. My empire is kind of falling apart right now, I have a bunch of unimproved hexes around and could build more slots for great works, but everything needs to go towards great people right now. T244 I get a Great Scientist, who boosts nothing since he only does modern era techs which I have all researched. 45 total. Germany denounces me, I couldn't care less. I'm making 400 gold/turn with all these projects. Rapid deployment comes in T245, I go for globalisation next. Almost all of my cities will finish a project in the next couple of turns, which should get me an engineer before the end. I expect to end up with 47 GP. By T247, some of my cities can no longer complete any new projects in time. I have them work on commercial projects to give me more money to rush people. I'm currently probably going to miss out on my last GE by about 150 points, so they will probably be one of the people bought. Some belated googling gives the formula for gold and faith needed for patronage: The Faith cost of Patronage is: 150 + (10 * (total - available)) The Gold cost is: 200 + (15 * (total - available)) Faith is cut by 25% from oracle, and gold is cut by 50% from democracy. I'm going to buy everything on T250, as they will appear instantly and count as generated that turn, in accordance with the scoring. At least, I hope that's how that works, I'll be rather annoyed if I'm wrong. Gold gain is currently 447/turn, highest I've ever seen. I hit end turn, and:  THIS WASN'T THE PLAN. I got a terrible score, so let's look at the graphs, and then I'll use the one more turn button to go back in-game and buy/count GP. The only graphs that matter:     After I hit one more turn, I hit the information era, boosting lasers, I couldn't care less. I get a writer, just like I calculated a while back. I have 8968 gold and 2465 faith, and go shopping for my final few GPs. The only ones I can buy with faith are ~ 700, 1700, and 1800, so there is no way I can get more than one with faith, since I can't mix it with gold. Thus, I go for the 1800, which is a great musician. I then buy a GE for 708, a GA for 1720, a GG for 2650, and a GM for 3153, leaving me with 737 gold. Stats: 15.7 GG points/turn 0 GAdmiral points/turn (never researched Harbours) 18.8 GE points/turn 49.1 GM points/turn 20.9 GS points/turn 55.3 GW points/turn 38.9 GA points/turn 26.6 GMus points/turn Total number of great works without slots to put them in: 18. Total number of unused writers: 7. Finally, TOTAL GREAT PEOPLE             51 This is better than I hoped for. Final empire shot:  I probably could have won 20 turns earlier if I had been building useful things rather than projects. I also probably should have conquered one of my neighbours, but I felt like trying to be the good guy for once. Also, sorry about the ton of maths included in this update, chances are it's based on incorrect assumptions regardless, and the GPP and other project yields have nothing at all to do with production. I just can't think of what else they could relate to.
Surprise! Turns out I'm a girl!
(March 26th, 2017, 18:49)MJW (ya that one) Wrote: FYI under the rules your GP after you won don't count. I PM'd Sullla, and he said that it was ok, as it was the same turn as I won. The rules state that GP earned on T250 count for points, so it's legal to purchase GP on that final turn.
Surprise! Turns out I'm a girl!
Wow, that was amazing! I loved the stats on unused and unusable Great People at the end. (Was the useless GS hanging around too, or were you able and willing to burn him for boosts to techs you'd already completed?) I also liked the attempts to reverse-engineer the flummoxing project yield mechanics. Is it possible that they increase (or decrease-per-unit-production) with tech and/or culture the way district costs and forest chopping do?
I wonder ... could you have sold some Great Works to the AIs, both to delay your victory date (by giving them more culture) and to get some spare cash for buying more Great People? You obviously had the wherewithal to replace them! (March 26th, 2017, 21:32)RefSteel Wrote: Wow, that was amazing! I loved the stats on unused and unusable Great People at the end. (Was the useless GS hanging around too, or were you able and willing to burn him for boosts to techs you'd already completed?) I also liked the attempts to reverse-engineer the flummoxing project yield mechanics. Is it possible that they increase (or decrease-per-unit-production) with tech and/or culture the way district costs and forest chopping do? I did burn the GS, since I had nothing better to do with them, and I only realised that they were useless when I didn't get a popup about a tech being boosted. I'm thinking at this point that the district projects probably are tied to tech/culture, as they do kinda scale separately for production (cause they take less time since more production goes into them). Selling great works was never something I considered, because I thought winning by tourism would be harder than it turned out to be. In the end, the AI just has no idea what to do with both culture and tourism, I had about 4x what the closest AI had by the end.
Surprise! Turns out I'm a girl!
Nice game (yeah the guy who reported at the last second is commenting 2 weeks after everyone else)
FYI Printing tech doubles the Great Writing work tourism. Re Projects: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/f...ad.600534/ Quote:I believe for Kongo you do NOT get the doubling bonus for Merchant/Artist/Writer/Musician points for these. It's a little odd with both the cost the and yield growing. The GPP points-per-hammer efficiency goes down as your tech/civic factor increases, asymptotically approaching 1/5th (for the generals/admirals/etc, the TS one approaches 3/10ths) . Around midgame its about .22 GPP per hammer and doesn't decrease much after, that was the rule of thumb I was using in comparing another district building vs projects along with # of turns until 250. (That payback ration makes sense if you have time for cities to do multiple rounds of projects). Frontloading the GPP from a project could pay off if you manage to recruit one sooner and then see another of the same cost before the average era advances and the GP get more expensive. If one was really motivated they could factor in the per-turn other yield of the project and the building yield (and upkeep cost). |
