I'm a bit surprised by that too, but much less so in hindsight. The (now-confirmed) mirrored starting position we've been shown, combined with the game settings, constrains civ choices rather heavily. The start has three BFC resources and each needs a different tech, with a third ring happy resource that needs yet a fourth. None of these four are Mining resources, and there's only one unforested hill, but everyone's going to need BW earlyish because it's an MP game. There are some decent commerce tiles at the start, but there's no way to leverage them very effectively, as FIN isn't a good option with all those rivers and RtR2.x. Before I logged in this morning and saw Russia was taken, it occurred to me that India might well go unpicked this game ... and if it does, that it's possible we shouldn't take it either! (India's RtR starting techs are so bad for a start like this that I'm not convinced even Fworkers can make up the deficit.)
On Krill's comments about the map and Mardoc's response: I guess (as I feared) Portugal is out unless the map gets a total redesign, further limiting the number of civs that can be viable on this start. I very much empathize with both Krill and Mardoc here: I don't like the idea of mirrored starts, and I'd rather see more water on the map than shows up on something lakes-like, but balancing a 9-civ interesting-looking pangaea-with-islands, even on a toroid, is a nightmare.
The mapmaker job is a thankless task. Actually I don`t mind playing a fairly unbalanced map as I believe civ is supposed to be a (slightly) unfair game by nature, though mirrored starts are fine as well. At least we get to practice our micro skills.
Wow - Ethiopia may not be as underrated as I thought - at least not by Dark Savant and ipecac. We'll have to see if he can play them up to their potential here, but if so, that potential is a lot scarier than it looks. As with Russia, there's no guarantee you'll even live long enough to get there, and in the case of Ethiopia, there are more and bigger pitfalls along the way - but the result, if they can pull it off, is even scarier.
As for Carthage, they fit a high-water Lakes-style map better than Portugal, and RtR Numids can get to stuff like Amphibious and Formation with just a barracks and a stable - but I'd still rather have vanilla Numids, which at least have more personality.
So what are our next choices here? Given what's been said in the tech thread, I doubt if Portugal will be very strong, and given the mirrored starts and pick trends, we can expect even more of the good-civs-for-this-start to go. So what's left? Assuming we still want an expansive leader, here are some of our options, spoiled for length:
- Mongolia is my personal favorite for this start (non-Zulu category) though it could well be taken by the time our turn comes around. It has good starting techs, an exciting UU, and a miilitary UB that's relevant until tanks, and works especially well with Izzy: Swapping into XP civics when building mounted units (with Barracks + Ger) can get them to L4 (e.g. for Formation, Amphibious, or F2+Mobility Knights/Cuirs/Cavs) right out of the gate.
- Khmer gets the Russian starting techs, with a UU that's great defensively (for discouraging certain kinds of attacks, or thwarting them if necessary) and the UB might even be worth building before the late game in select locations with RtR Expansive. I'm not a huge fan, but especially with so many of the best civs for this start off the table, I can definitely see its value.
- Germany likewise shares the Russian techs, and its uniques can be very effective if we can reach them while still in contention. If only they weren't the most boring uniques in the game....
- The Vikings offer a certain amount of flexibility on our start, make it easier to control such seas as exist on the map, and can take advantage of that control in the era of Maces (and their upgrades). If we just pretend Trading Posts never were arguably the most fun UB in the game, their new shipbuilding bonus (which also works for WBs, I think, though Exp already gets a bonus there) isn't bad at all.
- Persia is ... possibly not terrible? It shares the excellent-for-this-situation Zulu starting techs! It would let us go for AH and horses before BW and copper if we wanted to for some reason, and still sort of defend against chariots with Immortals behind city defenses! If we make it to factories, the UB would actually be useful! Basically, if we want to sell out for starting techs above all else - which isn't entirely crazy - this is the way.
- Rome doesn't start with Hunting, but Fishing/Mining should be helpful too, the Forum is at least better than in vanilla BtS, and Praets are the strongest city attackers until basically Infantry.
- England gets its uniques a little earlier than Russia, and starts with Fishing/Mining just like Rome. The Stock Exchange is kind of nice as a passive bonus - if we're still in contention by that point in the game, it'll be because we've expanded enough to need a lot of gold for maintenance - and also helps quickly raise cash for an upgrade push (or a bunch of rush-buying, especially with the Kremlin). Redcoats are tough to beat in their era, and on a per-unit basis, I think even Praets aren't as good against a city. (On a per-hammer basis, the Praets still win, and it isn't even close. Don't ask me how RtR's insane swordman bonus is still around after all this time; it is what it is.)
[EDIT: Then there are the non-EXP options, but it doesn't seem like we're considering the likes of Saladin/Charlemagne of Inca, and though I haven't had time to sim it properly, I can't think of any leader who could compensate for India's starting techs.
Then there's Celtia, Azteca, and the HRE, all of which have a lot going for them as well if we're willing to accept Myst - so still a lot of choices, depending on what you're looking for!]
It is looking more likely that we get the chance to pick Mongolia. I like it! Would Isabella be even better than Shaka?
Civs:
1.Mongolia
2.England
IF we get Mongolia I think we should pick a leader that can beef up our keshiks. If Mongolia is taken i`d rather choose something like Mehmed of England to play the long game.
Romans could be interesting as well. I say we wait until our spot and discuss if the top two choices are taken.
Cool! Izzy should do a great job of pivoting from good economics to a powerful war machine and back if we play her well, and Mongolia's unique stuff goes all-out for war while its techs make this start a whole lot more manageable at Expansive speed.
I think it'll be a really fun combination to play, with good value throughout the game: Strong techs with cheap Workers and WBs to help early, Keshiks and Gers giving us the backbone of a strong and long-lasting mid-game military with economic help from all the cheap Expansive buildings and Spi civic management, and Izzy's health bonus and civics micro-optimization abilities to carry us through the late game if we can get there in contention. I'm looking forward to dedlurking this!
The whole game is looking exciting, honestly. If Dark Savant takes Bismarck, look out; he may be getting ready to break the mod. (And if he sells out for Charles de Gaulle...) ... and then we could see dtay and CML both playing super-powered "restricted" combos in Peter/Russia and Shaka/Zulu!
I hope you've got the mod working for you! In the meantime, while we're waiting for the last few choices, let's try some totally uninformed Pick Analysis:
- JR4 as Izzy of Mongolia: We've talked a bit about this one already, for obvious reasons! I like both halves of this pick, and think they complement each other well. If JR4's high-level SP skills and lurking experience, together with ... whatever it is Ref brings to the team? ... can translate to strong MP play, this combo could really shine!
- GermanJoey as Churchill of Greece: Presumably wanting to work or improve the lake clams first and knowing Hunting would be the next target, GJ probably suspected there wouldn't be enough water on the map for the Vikings to matter, prefering Greece's early UU and its cheap Odeons a bit later on. This start has plenty of food and precious few hills for production, so Churchill, the RtR king of the early whip, does make a lot of sense, synergizing with the Odeons that he gets cheaply and that add still more happy to whip away.
- Ventessel as Wang Kon of China: There's definitely synergy in the form of Protective CKNs, and Wang Kon can get up to 2 extra commerce per turn pretty early on this start, but I'm almost worried Ventessel most recently read PB27 and doesn't know how different Financial is in this version of RtR. China's starting techs are still pretty good in a vacuum, but they're not the best for this start, and it's going to be a while before FIN gives him more than a coin or two per turn. Meanwhile, PRO offers nothing until he builds his first granary, and though Pottery is great for Financial in BtS, ToW, and RtR3.X, off-river Financial cottages are strictly worse than the on-river cottages we can all spam around this start, and the latter have equal value for everybody in this mod. China technically has a UB too, and it is situationally useful, but for Wang Kon? Maybe there's something there for a cultural victory....
- Krill as Boudicca of Inca: Wow. So my guess is that he was planning on Churchill and had a whole gameplan in mind, focused on military power. Then when his friend GermanJoey stole the leader he wanted, he decided - in typical Krill fashion - "You know what? I can still execute my gameplan! I'll just take Agg for the combat line instead of Pro for the Drill line. It'll even be better because I'll get all the XP buildings cheaply. Inca doesn't need cheap Terraces; they're still good at full price, and synergy is overrated anyway."* And because he's Krill, he probably will pull it off at least long enough to wreck somebody's face. It should be interesting to see how far he can take this, but I don't want him for a neighbor, certainly. As Izzy of Mongolia, we're nice and prickly, but MP-untested as we are, convincing him to look elsewhere will take more than just the right starting picks.
* - No attempt was made to record these thoughts in Krill's actual style. I'd have to add more swearing, a few transposed letters, and some specific, concise, and incisive commentary about game mechanics, cut the sentences much shorter, and infuse the whole thing with a sense of barely-suppressed anger and frustration, occasionally broken up by a bout of cheerful self-mockery.
