The First Civ6 Lurker Thread

[oledavy]

I'll try not to be overly verbose here, but I feel compelled to respond on the subject of "playing to win" vs. other motivations because it is something that has been an issue for our community for years and something that comes up in my life quite a bit. 

I love board games, and host a lot of board game nights. However, if I am hosting a hardcore strategy game night versus a casual party game night, I am very deliberate in inviting people who I know will generally always play to win. There's ultimately no getting around the fact that the biggest distorting factor on any non-zero sum game is other players. If someone at the table when you're playing Scythe/Eclipse is a casual gamer who is there for the social aspect, they will likely just end up handing the game to their immediate neighbor through their lack of action, even if they don't seek to hand the game to anyone in particular. 

Players who are not seeking to win are awful for a gaming experience that rewards mastery because they reward factors like: ending up next to them, having a better outside of game better relationship with them, etc. 

So ideally, it would be best to always play with players who want to win. In practice, this doesn't always work simply because players won't necessarily agree on what the best path to victory in a given situation is. 

With this in mind, it becomes difficult to police people by the: "playing for first" rubric simply because that project looks different to different individuals. One's "playing for first" is another's "handing the game to Sullla." 


Whether or not "playing for second" should be a valid goal in a game, I'll jump back to in a second. For the moment, what I'm saying is that I disagree with Sullla's supposition that Yuris has accepted playing for second place, he still thinks he's in it to win it (it's just super frustrating that he seems completely oblivious to the meta game situation and is making what I would regard as rather short-sighted decisions as a result).

At any rate, let's not jump down Sullla's throat either way. I like earning my victory, but I also like winning, and Sullla quite rightly feels he has earned this victory - putting a massive amount of effort into his own game while simultaneously exploring the game and educating the community. I think that easily forgives (if it ever needed to be forgiven in the first place), some glee that his opponents are falling on their swords. 

Circling back to the "other goals" question, I would love to hear people's response to the statement:

Agree or disagree, you should always be playing to win.

I always walk right up to agreeing, then realize the impossibility of this in practice (people get knocked into unwinnable positions, lose interest, etc), an impossibility further compounded by the "one person's playing to win is another person's throwing" issue. How many games have you played in your life where you've been angry at someone for acting in a way that you think is counter to their interest but they believe (rightly or wrongly) is their best path to victory? Is it fair to tell a person they can't have other goals in a game besides winning, or does entertaining that just ruin the experience for everyone?

[oledavy]

Well, this isn't going to be quite as easy




teh probably can reclaim the city. He can get shots with all 4 Archers, and while 27 strength is a lot, I don't think it's enough to withstand 5 attacks (and there's penalty for the city being damaged). Nevertheless I decided to keep it - razing seemed to achieve nothing except freeing up this territory for Sulla to settler. And I don't want that even more than I don't want teh to reclaim the city

This is what's super frustrating to me (albeit, as a lurker who wants the most interesting game possible).

Yuris now realizes his 4 unit expeditionary force, while enough to snag a city, is not enough to hold it. He may get another chance to take it on the counter-attack and actually raze it next turn, which would be something, but at the end of the day would do little to advance his own odds of winning. teh will still have effective control of the territory and just be out a settler. 

I don't want to harp on Yuris too much here, I've played four games with him at this point and I consider him one of the nicest people on the site. I will make this my last post of Monday-morning quarterbacking him. 

The signs that this would be the end result of this move were everywhere. All he had to do was look at power numbers, realize teh had a larger army than him, look at Sullla's city under siege, guess that the entire army was around there, and conclude that it would be able to flex back relatively quickly. If he actually was pumping out Jags like there was no tomorrow, seeking to overrun teh and accumulate enough territory to win, this would have been a fine move, a prelude to things to come. Not being able to hold the territory at the moment is fine if there is more military on the way.  However, he is working on districts in all his cities right now. This attack of opportunity is just going to end with forcing Yuris to build military to replenish the military he will lose, and preventing teh from meaningfully stopping Sullla from running away. I stand by my statement that out of Yuri's four options: 

1. Attack Archduke
2. Attack Stockholm
3. Attack Teh
4. Do Nothing

This was the worst one. 

And with that, I will conclude ranting. 

I can say at this point, I'm definitely aching to have my own crack at Civ6, this has been a fun game to watch.

[Dp101]

My only opinion on the playing to win stuff basically comes down to this: As long as you have a chance of winning, play to win, and afterwards, try and lose the least, whether that means beating everyone but the winner through peaceful economic development or helping them/riding their coattails to end up the least worst off. As long as your actions are aimed towards getting the best final placement possible, rather than arbitrarily playing kingmaker or something like that (not that that's what's happening here, I think Sullla beats teh regardless of Yuris's attack), then they are fine. Of course, I have never played a MP civ game here and would probably lose in 2 seconds if I did, so take my opinion with a kilogram of salt.

[shinghand]

Well, this isn't going to be quite as easy




teh probably can reclaim the city. He can get shots with all 4 Archers, and while 27 strength is a lot, I don't think it's enough to withstand 5 attacks (and there's penalty for the city being damaged). Nevertheless I decided to keep it - razing seemed to achieve nothing except freeing up this territory for Sulla to settler. And I don't want that even more than I don't want teh to reclaim the city

This is what's super frustrating to me (albeit, as a lurker who wants the most interesting game possible).

Yuris now realizes his 4 unit expeditionary force, while enough to snag a city, is not enough to hold it. He may get another chance to take it on the counter-attack and actually raze it next turn, which would be something, but at the end of the day would do little to advance his own odds of winning. teh will still have effective control of the territory and just be out a settler. 

I don't want to harp on Yuris too much here, I've played four games with him at this point and I consider him one of the nicest people on the site. I will make this my last post of Monday-morning quarterbacking him. 

The signs that this would be the end result of this move were everywhere. All he had to do was look at power numbers, realize teh had a larger army than him, look at Sullla's city under siege, guess that the entire army was around there, and conclude that it would be able to flex back relatively quickly. If he actually was pumping out Jags like there was no tomorrow, seeking to overrun teh and accumulate enough territory to win, this would have been a fine move, a prelude to things to come. Not being able to hold the territory at the moment is fine if there is more military on the way.  However, he is working on districts in all his cities right now. This attack of opportunity is just going to end with forcing Yuris to build military to replenish the military he will lose, and preventing teh from meaningfully stopping Sullla from running away. I stand by my statement that out of Yuri's four options: 

1. Attack Archduke
2. Attack Stockholm
3. Attack Teh
4. Do Nothing

This was the worst one. 

And with that, I will conclude ranting. 

I can say at this point, I'm definitely aching to have my own crack at Civ6, this has been a fun game to watch.

Yea, this have been my exact feelings.

Nothing against yuris, but his actions were quite shortsighted - what kind of gains does he expect to get out of this? I think this is the mistake that might have given Sullla the game.

[Ichabod]

Well, this isn't going to be quite as easy




teh probably can reclaim the city. He can get shots with all 4 Archers, and while 27 strength is a lot, I don't think it's enough to withstand 5 attacks (and there's penalty for the city being damaged). Nevertheless I decided to keep it - razing seemed to achieve nothing except freeing up this territory for Sulla to settler. And I don't want that even more than I don't want teh to reclaim the city

This is what's super frustrating to me (albeit, as a lurker who wants the most interesting game possible).

Yuris now realizes his 4 unit expeditionary force, while enough to snag a city, is not enough to hold it. He may get another chance to take it on the counter-attack and actually raze it next turn, which would be something, but at the end of the day would do little to advance his own odds of winning. teh will still have effective control of the territory and just be out a settler. 

I don't want to harp on Yuris too much here, I've played four games with him at this point and I consider him one of the nicest people on the site. I will make this my last post of Monday-morning quarterbacking him. 

The signs that this would be the end result of this move were everywhere. All he had to do was look at power numbers, realize teh had a larger army than him, look at Sullla's city under siege, guess that the entire army was around there, and conclude that it would be able to flex back relatively quickly. If he actually was pumping out Jags like there was no tomorrow, seeking to overrun teh and accumulate enough territory to win, this would have been a fine move, a prelude to things to come. Not being able to hold the territory at the moment is fine if there is more military on the way.  However, he is working on districts in all his cities right now. This attack of opportunity is just going to end with forcing Yuris to build military to replenish the military he will lose, and preventing teh from meaningfully stopping Sullla from running away. I stand by my statement that out of Yuri's four options: 

1. Attack Archduke
2. Attack Stockholm
3. Attack Teh
4. Do Nothing

This was the worst one. 

And with that, I will conclude ranting. 

I can say at this point, I'm definitely aching to have my own crack at Civ6, this has been a fun game to watch.

There's always option 5:

5. Rage quitting.

I'd also like to understand the reasoning behind rage quitting as the best way you can be "playing to win", as you should always be doing.

[kjn]

For all that I think Yuris shouldn't be judged too harshly for attacking teh, I do think he has chosen poorly in deciding to keep the city.

He gets a city that won't ever contribute much to the rest of the empire (unlike a city settled of his own), and teh will have a focal point for attacks against Yuris, and it ties down Yuris's small army as well. Yeah, Sullla might send some units over to help fight teh's army (like Yuris hopes), but I really doubt it will be more than some attacks of opportunity or to defend offensively; Sullla has little to gain in the east and much to gain in the north.

(Best plan for Yuris, once the decision to attack Frankfurt was taken, would probably be to start a settler, raze Frankfurt, and send the settler to a spot more suited to defense.)

Good move by teh to grab control of Stockholm. Not only will it hurt Sullla directly in the science, but the presence of several hostile units to his flank (even if crappy and incompetently led) will complicate his war against Archduke.

[unaghy]

Everyone has rights to play this game however he wishes and while criticism is welcome to help player to improve himself judging motives behind players decisions in the game I believe is not in our rights to do. Even obvious things for lurker may not be easily observed, nor properly understood. Keep in mind that this is first MP game in Civ 6.

[Alhambram]

Good move by teh to grab control of Stockholm. Not only will it hurt Sullla directly in the science, but the presence of several hostile units to his flank (even if crappy and incompetently led) will complicate his war against Archduke.

Indeed a nice move by Teh, also because Yuris's units should be flanked by Stockholm units now as noted by last picture in Yuris's thread. 
However i think city state always raze captured cities since city state is supposed to have one city always, so Teh surely needs to capture Frankfurt by himself instead Stockholm.
Also from Sulla's thread Hong Kong is currently annoying bee buzzing around his newly grabbed land, so Sulla has to make a decision next time he gets envoy: Stockholm or Hong Kong.

[Molach]

Regarding Yuris play, I'm saying that with a perfect read on the game, he would never attack teh ( sullla runaway, no chance to win against teh)

Im sure I would make worse moves without benefit of lurker/player threads, fog of war, so not criticising what he did.

In civ 4 context this would make more sense.

[kjn]

Given that Archduke only has two cities left now, I think Sullla will simply ignore the Hongkong units, as he mentioned in his last post, and also drop his next envoy(s) in Stockholm.

It's interesting how the city states add another dimension in the warfare, even in MP. Yeah, their units likely pose no danger to any cities of the players, but they can complicate the tactical landscape, and grabbing (and denying) the bonuses they give will likely be viewed as very important.

The envoy game is also a part where I guess two smaller empires have the advantage over a single large one, unlike most other aspects of the game.