Woden's Wondrous World of China

[Woden]

So I get to chose form Arabia, China , or France...probably not France.

I am leaning 75% towards Arabia and will post some strategy thoughts in a little bit.

Lurkers/ded lurkers welcome!

[Woden]

So here are a few thoughts on my available civilizations:

France: Not at all interested in France. All their abilities, units, and buildings come too late in the game and are geared to culture or espionage. I don’t think they are a very strong civilization for multiplayer.

China (25% interest): China could be a good choice for quicker development both tech-ing/civic-ing with 60% (instead of 50%) for Eurekas and 4 action builders (that can add 15% to early wonders). Rushing Petra or Pyramids (if deserts are around) could help stay ahead. Their unique unit is the Crouching Tiger (Machinery) and they are a little stronger than a crossbowman but with less range. I still think you can build crossbowmen even though they are available with same tech. The unique building is the Great Wall, providing +4 defense and +1 gold if adjacent to another wall. Maybe useful for defense, I don’t know. I haven’t played them but they do usually seem to be near the top in my other games. I will run through a game and test them out. I can see them being useful in gain a development lead with the additional builder charge and extra eureka bonus but I do tend to research what is needed, even if I don’t have the eureka.

Arabia (75% sure I will pick them): I consider Arabia a strong civilization that can chase multiple victory strategies simultaneously. They have bonuses to both science and religion. Their unique building is Madrasa, which provides +5 to science (compared to the university’s +4) and addition faith equal to the adjacency bonus. They are guaranteed a religion and their religious building cost 10% the faith than other religions. Their unique unit, the Mamluk, is a strong replacement for knights because they heal between turns regardless of movement or combat.
 
My primary strategy with Arabia would be to initially play a very defensive game until I reach Stirrups. I don’t think this game will progress as fast as PBEM 1 since we are going to have barbarians on. We will have to shift a little attention to them and make sure we don’t run a farmer’s gambit at first. That means building a few more units in the beginning. I am going to focus on defense and building up my cities. Once I reach Stirrups, I will upgrade/build a bunch of Mamluks with siege towers and conquer my neighbor or any civ with a religion. I will then beeline straight for Reformed Church to get Theocracy and faith buy a second wave. Hopefully I can conquer somebody, if not I will bring a few missionaries along and convert their cities.
 
My secondary strategy with Arabia is to seek the first religion, even though they are guaranteed the last, because I don’t think anybody will pursue a religion. I think an early religion will have three impacts:

1.      Faith can be as good as gold. With the right beliefs, faith can be used to build science and theater building, provide production, science, or food bonuses. In addition, I can pull an army out of thin air once I reach Theocracy using faith.

2.      In multiplayer, everybody chases domination and probably will ignore religion. If I can get an early religion and spread it at least 1 city of each player, it might spread to more cities if there is not another religion in the game.

3.      If I can get my religion to spread to others and they do notice, the only way to combat religion is to get your own religion.  They must shift production to building something they don’t want to, wasting hammers on something other than units or infrastructure and buy that time they probably are not generating a lot of faith to by missionaries. And if they do found a religion, I will strike and snuff it out.

I am not 100% on this strategy right now, I need to test and see how well it works and if China is any good. I will probably make my decision in few days.

So, those are my initial thoughts on my choices. I will put together my thoughts on the other players and civ choices in little bit.

[Woden]

My thoughts on the other players
First, let me tell you a little about myself. This is my first game against humans, so I am expecting to get steamrolled. I have played a fair amount (~400 hours) of civ 6 since its release and am primarily a builder that chase victories other domination. With the current AI, I find domination a little easy and boring after you conquer about half the civs because you tend to just steamroll them and have a huge tech lead. I end up quitting the game and not finishing.  I tend to like games where I constantly have the feeling like a city needs to build something instead of trying to find something that will take a while to build so I don’t have to come back to it anytime soon. We will see how this goes, I don’t know much about these players, having only recently joined RB. I will definitely have to research some of their previous game posts to see what type of players they are. Here are some of my initial thoughts on their civ choices:
 
Olvedavy: Looks like he has been around for a little while (joining in 2011). He gets to choose from Rome, Greece(Gorgo), and Kongo.  All strong choices. Sullla has definitely shown the power of Rome in PBEM1 and is probably the front runner here but I am not 100% sure he will select them. He might want to show the power of someone else. Kongo is a good builder civilization with a so-so unique swordsman replacement and is geared to cultural victories and could easily pull ahead in a builder’s game. Gorgo gets culture from combat victories and has an extra wild card slot. Could be a good choice for an early war but also is a leader geared towards cultural victory.  I am probably 75% sure he will choose Rome, but at least I can use Sullla PBEM approach to formulate a defense
 
Alhambram: Like me, he is new to PBEM but does have experience with multiplayer. He is also new to RB and his only thread is his spoiler thread for this PBEM, so I won’t find anything on his play style. He choices are India, Norway, and Russia. Not the greatest choices but not the worst. Norway would be good on a map with sea combat but on land I don’t think so much. India is geared to religion and has a good unique horseman replacement. If he chooses India, it might be bad for my Arabia strategy and maybe a good target for early aggression. Russia might be the best of the bunch with the extra tiles when founding cities. Cossacks are a nice unit but might come a little late. The Lavra might also be a little problematic with my strategy, I don’t want anybody generating large amounts of faith. I give about a 60% chance it will be Russia.
 
Singaboy: He is fairy new to RB, joining Oct 2016 and only has a thread on adventue 1. I should look at that and see what kind of player he is. His choices are Aztecs, Egypt, and Germany. He probably has best group of civs to choose from. Both Germany and Aztecs are strong civs, Egypt not so much. I think I will know the type of game he is going to play by his choice.  If he chooses Aztecs, I can see an early rush with Eagle Warriors. If he chooses Germany, I can expect an early period of building and midgame rush of Knights and Crossbows. I think it is a 50/50 shot between Aztecs and Germany.
 
TheArchduke: He has been at RB the longest and it looks like he has a few threads on Civ 4 -  6. He was knocked out of PBEM1 by Sullla early and didn’t write up much, so I don’t know much about his play style. I should look at his previous threads.  Out of everybody, I think he got the worst group of three with Japan, Pericles, and Spain. All three are so-so. Japan does have cheap districts and the Samurai but most lists don’t have him very high. Pericles is the 2nd leader of Greece,  gets an extra wild card slot and Hoplite, but is focused on cultural victory. I have tried played Spain once and think they are geared towards a religious victory and continents map. Their unique building does supply faith and science, so it could be troublesome for my strategy. I think it is 60% chance he will choose Japan for cheap districts.

[Woden]

Just an quick update, I have not had time to play any test games but have looked at China a little more. I would say I am now 50/50 between China and Arabia. The extra charge for builders and the possibility of landing most of the early wonders could be very powerful. Pyramids, Petra, and Terracotta army could all be useful. Petra and pyramids will need desert, so I might not have that as a possibility. Could also land Oracle for GPPs and Stonehenge for early religion. Definitely will have to test them out and see if I can come up with a viable strategy.

[Woden]

I was able to run a test game to 100 turns with China and all I have to say is wow! It was a pretty miserable map (stuck in a corner without a lot of room for expand) but I was able to get 4 cities out, build 4 wonders (could have been 6 but the AI beat me to a couple of half complete wonders), and had a decent army. Also, the extra 10% eurekas were nice, a little hard to judge when to stop research before an eureka but still nice. The only problem I saw is that with concentrating on wonders, I wasn't get all that I could. If I chose China, I will definitely have plan them out a little more. I am lean a little more towards China. I want to run a test game with the Arabs to see how many Mumluks I can produce before turn 100 for an attack force.

[Woden]

I will say this is a tough decision. I have solid strategies for both Arabia and China but I think I am going to go with China. They are more geared towards builders, which is my play style and they offer an unique strategy which I don't think you will see in many multiplayer games. I am going to build all eleven of the early wonders, hopefully by T100, and then "pray" for army to conquer the world. I will share the details and my reasoning once my starting strategy is fine tuned.

[RFS-81]

I will say this is a tough decision. I have solid strategies for both Arabia and  China but I think I am going to go with China. They are more geared towards builders, which is my play style and they offer an unique strategy which I don't think you will see in many multiplayer games. I am going to build all eleven of the early wonders, hopefully by T100, and then "pray" for army to conquer the world.  I will share the details and my reasoning once my starting strategy is fine tuned.

With religion completely ignored in PBEM1, I'm looking forward to seeing if it can be useful in multiplayer. I'm a bit surprised to read that you're a builder, what with your username taken from a war god. But then again, it fits with your faith-recruitment game plan Did you already think about what beliefs to choose?

[Woden]

I will say this is a tough decision. I have solid strategies for both Arabia and  China but I think I am going to go with China. They are more geared towards builders, which is my play style and they offer an unique strategy which I don't think you will see in many multiplayer games. I am going to build all eleven of the early wonders, hopefully by T100, and then "pray" for army to conquer the world.  I will share the details and my reasoning once my starting strategy is fine tuned.

With religion completely ignored in PBEM1, I'm looking forward to seeing if it can be useful in multiplayer. I'm a bit surprised to read that you're a builder, what with your username taken from a war god. But then again, it fits with your faith-recruitment game plan Did you already think about what beliefs to choose?

I think if PBEM1 went a little further, religion might have entered it? It will be interesting to see if it is a viable path. I am basing a lot of my strategy around it. Hopefully, I can abuse it to its full extent. I have only chosen 1 followers belief so far that I will definitely take: Divine Inspiration for +4 faith to wonders. I probably will take the Synagogue for extra faith (?) as one and then see what I need for the other 2. I still need to see what works best.  

Funny about the "God of War", I never really thought of it that way. Maybe after this PBEM, I will be known as the "God of War".  I use Woden because Odin is my middle name but is also a popular User name (especially with Scandinavian users) but it always seems that Woden is available. Here, I didn't even check.

[Woden]

I PM’ed Sullla that my choice for PBEM2 is “Wonder”-ous China now that I have a strategy outlined. I am going to start by telling you why I chose China over Arabia. I feel both are top tier or near top tier Civs. I have played Arabia in a few SP games and think he is a strong science and religion civ. I was hoping for him as one of my choices because I had a strategy already planned (see above), not so much with China.  The extra eurekas and builder charges are nice but I always felt the AI goes after early wonders and there are only a few strong ones to chase and I think to win you need to exploit a leader’s traits to the fullest. But this is not SP and there is no AI to build early wonders. Building an early wonder will put you behind everybody in development or take away future production through chopping. Then I thought, what would it take to builds all eleven ancient and classical wonders and how can I exploit that to its full potential. After some testing, I discovered how easy it would be and how powerful it might be. So here is my strategy with China. Hopefully it works as good as I think it will. 

As stated above, I plan on building all eleven wonders. Some of them are very powerful: Pyramids, Petra, Stonehenge, Colosseum, Oracle. Some of them not so much: Great Library and Mahabodhi Temple. How and why would I build all 11 wonders. First, China’s Builders can use a charge to build 15% of a wonder. Not bad spending 12.5 cogs (worker base of 50 cogs for 4 charges) for a minimum of 27 cog return (min 180 cogs for a wonder). There are 3 ways to increase this that I am going to use:

1.      Monument of the God: Construct Ancient and Classical Wonders 15% faster.
2.      Autocracy: Gain 10% Bonus on Wonder Production.
3.      Policy Card: Corvee +15% Production towards Ancient and Classical Wonders.

Combined that’s 40% bonus production towards wonders. That means it is 4 charges; I can build a wonder for the price of a Builder. As a bonus, once the Builder is done, I don’t have to spend any more production on it. I can swap it in, use the Builder, and swap back to whatever I was building. After the Pyramids, I gain +1 Builder’s charge, so it won’t even cost a whole Builder. I will need 44 Builder’s charges to build all the wonders. All I need is 8 builders (Pyramids provide 1 builder). So, with 8 Builders, I can get:

+1 Builder charges, an early religion, +2 GPP per district, 15% faster growth, +3 Amenities and + 2 culture to at least 3 cities, +1 Trade Routes and a Trader, + 1 Naval Movements, 2 Apostles, 1 production powerhouse (Petra), +1 promotions for my current army, +7 faith, +5 culture, +6 gold, and +2 science.

Not bad, it will take some effort. I plan on building in two periods: (1) I plan on building the Pyramids, Hanging Gardens, Stonehenge, and the Oracle as soon as I get to Autocracy. I want to try and get them done around the same turn with Pyramids going first to give my other Builders the extra charge. I would love to build all 4 on the same turn to send a message that no one else should attempt an early wonder, they are mine.  The remaining all require a district, so I must build a holy site + shrine + temple, campus + library, harbor + lighthouse, entertainment district, and encampment. Hopefully I can get this done by T100 and hopefully nobody declares war on me because of all my wonders.

Now the real reason to build all these wonders, religion! With Stonehenge, I will get the first religion. In multiplayer, you most likely don’t what to spend the cogs going after a religion. You either should build Stonehenge or a Holy District and Holy Districts take up space that can be otherwise used by something better. I see only 3 civs going after an “early” religion: China (because of Stonehenge), Arabia (because it works so well with it), and Russia (because of cheap Larvas). Religion gets a bad rap because to abuse it to be worth it, you need to generate a large amount of faith. This is where my decision between China and Arabia was made easy. The only belief I have 100% decide on is the Follower’s Belief: Divine Inspiration (+4 faith for all wonders). Not much for 1 or 2 wonders, but 11. That is +44 faith per turn for all the wonders plus +7 faith provide by the religious wonders, +6 for a shrine and temple in the holy site I need to build, and +? adjacency bonus. That is a minimum of +57 faith per turn. After 20 turns, that is 1,140 faith.
Why does faith matter? This goes to my 2nd strategy, Theocracy. Theocracy lets you buy units with Faith at a 15% discount. I can pray for an invasion force or if someone decides they would like all my wonders, I can make an army magically appear. Imagine if I had a military power of 200 and someone with 400 decides to declare war on me and attack. They open up their next turn and find that they are outnumbered and my power went from 200 to 600. I could wipe out their invasion force and then march on their cities.

I think this strategy will work towards most victory conditions; religious if I can spread my religion around, domination if I can go conquer someone, cultural with tourism for all my wonders, science with a Petra-fueled mega city. One of my worries is that with all these wonders, I am putting a target on my back. People will either want the wonders or think that I am weak because I am building wonders. I think war will come a little later than PBEM1. We have barbicans on so no farmer’s gambit will you initially expand.  You will actually have to build a military to fight them, so development might be slowed. I am sure if someone is going to go for an early kill, they will follow Sullla’s lead and go after an early great general. So, if I watch the GPP and follow who gets it, I will know who is planning action and coming.
My only other worry is not having stone near my capital and/or not having a decent desert within a few city radii. So:

@Sullla: If you roll a map where everybody else has a decent start but I am near a hill desert. No need to re-roll, I won’t complain.
 
So, this is my strategy, let me know if you think it might work or if I am crazy. I don’t expect to do very well in this game as I have never played against humans and let’s face it, the AI is not very good at war.

[rho21]

So, this is my strategy, let me know if you think it might work or if I am crazy.

Does it matter? The important thing is that it sounds fun to try. And very different to anything in PBEM 1, so it should contribute to our knowledge of opening strategies.

A couple of questions:
Does the Pyramids add charges to existing builders, or only to newly-created ones?
Do you have plans to do anything with your religion later, or just save all the faith for army purposes?