Timmy tries Adv 4

[timmy827]

I will have a real report by deadline but afternoon/evening Pacific, so just a scoring placeholder for now

I think my count is 130 Great People.  I don't have a good way to measure other than scrolling through the 'previously recruited screen' so I could be off by a couple, counting that many is error prone

[Woden]

A good way to find out how many GP you earned is if you look at the score detail, it should have a GP score and each GP is worth 3 points.

[timmy827]

Thanks Woden - yes 130 confirmed.


Starting thoughts:

As best I can tell the great people (after the first ones visible at the start) are picked randomly from the ones at (world era + 1).  I think it is an average of each player's era (although if that comes to 3.5 exactly it rounds down to 3), or it might be that the player who earns the GP isn’t counted, not 100% sure.  But regardless of the exact formula you have an interest of preventing the average era so the cheaper GP stay available longer.  And clearly best way to slow progress of eras on King will be to war and conquer multiple AI down to one small city (also picks up several cities on the cheap).  

However, can’t do this to every AI - would worry about an early culture win.  (Suppose you could not use any of your cultural GP but that sounds real sad).  And in my unreported-but-mostly done Epic 2, I was allied to several AI’s and those with good relations were paying tons of cash for surplus resources, so there is some use to trying to pick friends to not bother.  So decided that I would likely go after 3 of the 5 opponents; 3 cripples should hold down the average era well enough, and leaving only one AI intact runs some risk of them doing a religious victory as Kongo isn’t best equipped to counter-pressure religious spread.  

Opening:
I moved settler 1SW.  Scouted warrior to the west initially, so I did not get the first contact with Stockholm but did with Mohenjo-Daro though some luck on T12.  (opening build warrior that went NE.) I went warrior->slinger as the best tiles early have the lame Plantation improvement and already have a 2/2 forest hill.  .  And actually started a settler before builder, saving all the starting gold + the cocoa gold to buy first builder


Tremendous indirect hut luck:

Seemed buggy that he will sell it for 1g, debated leaving it off as exploitative, but in end decided to go with it.  Probably some players will pop relics themselves through hut luck.  Besides the bonus Kongo, means I get plenty of faith for pantheon and can skip God King.  I took Divine Spark, actually wanted the faith-harvest one but it was gone early.  


By now I’ve met all 5 AI and can see Norway is closest - but Stockholm and mountains block good city sites on the river, first settler goes west to the pin.  2x5-food marshrice plus a lot of plains hills sound great.  

Another new move for me, use the TR for culture expansion and it happens to make the road between the cities too.  In a little bad luck, a barb scout managed to plunder it about 10 turns later, thought the short distance between me and M-D would be safe…


Spain helped clear the camp, Monty took this spot I wanted.  Lucky for me my lack of early plantations got him to declare Friends as early as T33!  

Sell lux to keep Monty happy and more dumb AI relic luck, woot!  And cashed in more AI stupidity

Despite all those units around, Germany lost their settler and my scout nabbed it (no barb defending it, German archer must have finished it off but not recaptured…)

City #3,4 (built settlers not the one I just captured) - can thrive with little culture though earned a kvetch from Spain.  Glad that Friends (aztec) won’t ding you for “close” settler plants.  Development wise I planted on Campus at the cap, and CH’s everywhere.  Almost every city would build a CH + TSquare as their first districts, expect with the Kongo bonus most people will do that.  However I was prioritizing settlers over finishing districts, the first great people were not amazing.  

The captured settler made it all the way over here just in time to head off spain.  Note I’m leaving the river north of Kwila empy and would for a very long time - that was one of the few spots lacking hills (guessing it was the Young world age).  Doubt this is news to people who have been playing RB games, but seems like hills are the ubertile and more valuable than most of the resource tiles.  

From popups I had determined Norway has the Heavy Industry agenda, I can work with that although he actually called my Kongolese lazy early  So almost certain Spain is going to be harder to friend and a target, so kept squeezing them with northward cities (also because of where the rivers run)

Tech - went Masonry and Wheel before finishing the usual Apprentice beeline, mostly to satisfy quests for M-D and Stockholm (one was a Chariot thus wheel) and also take flier on Pyramids.  (Seems like AI caps have little desert, was correctly guessing I could do it late-ish).  Actually took Autocracy 1st at T55 for the wonder build.  

Still wonder if would’ve been better to use the flood plain at the cap but this worked.  After finishing it, went to Classical Republic.

Excellent, Yerevan is a terrible desert location so if Monty captures that he’s a great target (he did win).  Spain’s war was telegraphed pretty badly, punked him a bit with resource sales and a loan where he would DOW/break a lot of my GPT payment back.  Upgraded archers handled it with no issues.  Was also selling all my lux, got one more Friendship from Aztec that would last to about T96 for safety.  Think by this point I was settling on upgraded Knights as the main conquest engine.

Oh geez, silly AI let me snag another settler from Spain up by Hattusa

Last of my original core, angered Norway but best source of Iron for upgraded knights.  The captured settler wandered NW with the warrior semi-blindly but found a nice river spot north of Kumasi, shown below along with “wow, wasn’t expecting free meeting envoys this late!”  

The western exploration was also fruitful with the two Commercial CS.  Was a good draw to have 3 culture + 2 commercial for a game when already planning CH and TS spam.

Final big benefit of those relics, cheating Germany out of the first cheap GG who will boost Knights nicely.  I had been running Strategos to get closer, and would also use Literary Tradition some after this.  Think the GP policies are sometimes good just for those first 60-point people but after that they tend to pale in comparison to other options.  (for anything past that, you need significant district points to get close and then the +2 points from a policy seems pretty weak)

Hah, I finally popped one myself (yes a hut in the far west, not an apostle), obviously less swingy this late.  But, tourism is actually an issue with the relics this early!  Would have to watch that.

Around here, I was pausing expansion and focusing on the conquering part.  

Target picking as per the opening statement and reasons:
Aztec - can leave them with Yerevan.  Residual assumption from Civ4 that Monty always causes trouble so kill him first. (No real idea if that’s true in civ6).  But his luxury agenda is gonna cause conflict, I kept him happy by selling mine early but going to need them as empire grows.  
Spain - already warred me once.  Ironically they had the “exploiter” agenda which player usually satisfies but I didn’t learn until plan well in motion.
Germany - I will want to control several CS (esp Stockholm of course) which will anger him, and the ‘ideologue’ agenda is bad news in the long run (we had some friendly times when both in Republic but assume that eventually I will be on a higher tier gov’t and he will hate me for it)

Sparing:
Ghandi - he stayed at one city for an awful long time and is furthest in distance by a wide margin, so he lives although his agenda I’m obviously crossing a lot.
Norway - with Heavy Industry I should have some advantage to keeping him happy in the long run.  (I also had ideas about building some ships to get their ‘likes navy’ - thought might be easy as no coastal cities anywhere circa T100 -  but never needed to).  He did have Oracle which I wanted but at time of decision, concluded that I wasn’t going to get enough faith for that to matter much.  Another reason to keep him is that he’s boxed in against tundra, my Sanga, and the Yerevan Desert, it seems very unlikely he would settle any location I want.  

Started saving gold, build chariots while targeting Stirrups, .  (have already stockpiled archers before Machinery and warriors before Iron Working).  And prepped two rams.  At T101 took Professional Army and burned through about 1300 gold on upgrades for 7 knights, 5 Xbows, couple Ngao Mbeba.  These are in two armies for Aztec/Spain wars initially, Hannibal goes with the Aztec army.  

These are very easy fights so only a few pics.  Spain had walls in more cities but fewer units, so not any harder.  

Was wondering if Knights were overkill and if I should have just Horseman rushed (also would have slowed down era progress earlier, though would have captured less cities.  The AI’s weren’t settling a ton but most of their placement decisions were reasonably good so that was a benefit of warring later).  Handily captured an Entertainment Complex that will allow the 6-city Colosseum site, without having to build an EC myself.  See no other EC on the map so I can wait to build it.  Also Seville was the newest Spain city and the one I planned to leave them with.  

While the battles rage, I continue cranking settlers (there are a LOT of decent looking spots with 4+ hills) and also slipped in a very late Hanging Gardens at capital.  Also started a lot of Mbanzas.  (I had done some work at the capital getting it to 10 for Civil Service, but could see culture accelerating a lot and decided size 15 for Urbanization was not gonna happen.  Possible with Mbanza but there is too much good land with all the hills on this map, will want all my core cities putting out some settlers. )


Warmonger management: (how to keep a few AI liking you)

The most important thing is to sign up for joint wars, The AI you ally with doesn’t give you any warmonger blame in that one.  And it’s as good as the denouce/formal CB without the 6 turn wait (and the possible ‘denouced a friend’ relations hit, and often the AI will pay you a bit for this privilege).  

Ceding seems like a never-do choice now; regardless of whether they cede or not the occupation (no growth/heavy penalty on all other yields) goes away when peace signed.  And ceding gets another round of warmonger penalties!   With that, taking only -6 per city in Medieval (and sometimes less for the small ones), and it fading by 1/turn, it does seem tractable to do some conquering without fatally damaging relations with AI.  
One thing that didn’t work was culture moving too fast and putting me in the Renaissance (warmonger penalties go up each era through Industrial then ) before I could capture any of Germany’s cities, even with the levied catapults.  

So with that, and all the following, could keep both of the ‘survivors’ freindly
-Getting both of them to Friends beforehand, and Ally during the war (when they reached Cs) helped too I think (+9 friend/+18 ally does a lot to balance warmonger penalties).
-using joint wars.  (although the AI’s stayed at war long time, and I wasn’t always able to do it, but did for the first Spain/Aztec/Germany wars. )
- Gandhi’s peace agenda isn’t too bad, it’s -8 when you start a war and lasts but disappears when you make peace.  
-the new patch discount on small cities helps
-Take cities in peace treaty (taking one not conquered, not ‘ceding’; this has zero warmonger),
-leaving Spain and Germany with 2 cities and coming back later to finish, which spread out the warmonger hit a bit and allowed using the colonial CB so the Industrial era penalty was halved.  
-gifting surplus resources

Not sure it was worth all those contortions though, I didn’t get all that much gold out of either (king ai’s, not emperor, seemed to have a lot less gold than the epic 2 AI’s), and the resource-sales gold was a drop in the bucket compared to a huge empire.  But a good learning experience for future games.  

Other reason to leave Spain with 2 cities

Had seen it started, but was surprised at this look, compared to some of my epic 1 saves and it seems to be 65-70% done.  Bilbao will be a nicer city with it so I bypassed.  
However that didn’t work out, spain tried to rebuild their Heavy Chariots endlessly.  Even after I peaced them Norway didn’t, they never returned to Petra, and Monty eventually landed it in Yerevan.  Oh well.  


Good pic, can see Madrid captured (I would peace Spain as soon as the 10 turn ‘won’t talk’ clock runs out, starting to rush towards Germany).  Wembo is example of the (many) cities I would found.  With a TR to capital, some harvesting, and M-D lordship freeing me from the rivers (super easy, no other AI sent an envoy to Mohenjo-Daro the whole game; I did have to battle with Germany for Stockholm up to 6 envoys though) there were a lot of spots that could get to size 7 for 3 districts and mostly have 5-6 ‘good prod’ tiles they could work at that size.  (hills, riverside lumbermills, or resources allowing a good production on flatlands).  I built a ton of settlers, at end of game the cost was up to 500 for a settler.  Also took La Venta down the way (allied with Spain, had some relation

At this time I also sold all 3 relics, tourism was getting closeish and I had deployed some great works too. Valued the culture more than the food/prod at this point later in the growth curve

Back to wars, this was another unique move.  My knights can get to Germany fast (though not before Ren era) but the rams are slow (too bad the GG move bonus doesn’t work on support units).  Stockholm just happened to have several rent-a-pults conveniently located .  With the GG plus patch changes, the cats could move onto flatland and blast the city walls before the city can shoot back, and this worked well enough for the german cities.  Thank goodness I had built that road earlier (Seoul quest) although was still a significant traffic jam moving the forces in.  I was able to buy in Norway for this war also (Gandhi hadn’t met Fred yet!)

The german forces hanging out were easy marks (were they planning to attack me?  They had been there a while) especially with the first-turn advantage.  You can see that Mainz oddly doesn’t have walls, but Germany has made a couple knights which have boosted their city strengths to a respectable number.  

Their horse units killed this one catapult and the encampment gave me some headaches, but could wear down these cities.  All the farms for pillage-healing helped a lot.

Excellent, these knights allow the Square Rigging boost! I wasn’t rushing to Industrialization super fast, like earlier with Apprentice I had a fair number of CS quests I wanted before new era so was lining up the lower half of tree for Steel as well.  (I think in most games, square rigging boost not worth it as Gunpowder is almost as expensive…) This second delay maybe wasn’t great though - with me crippling 3 of the 5 rival AIs I had very little trouble losing Surezian from here on, and later in the game was sitting on several envoys I just didn’t need.  Also never needed to finish a lot of the side civics for envoys either (Theology, Opera&Ballet, Scorched Earth).

After taking two cities, Germany would give up two more in the peace treaty!  That was good for my goals of keeping AI happy.  So I could come back a bit later to finish wars, the backs of Germany/spain broken.  A few asides on observations:


So Norway finally moved their settler that has been there forever (it went in the tundra, fine with me.  But geez look at this.  That stone at Stavanger has been pillaged for ages and ages. (bad both for Norway to let barbs do that, then never fix it).  And look at all the unimproved hills at Nidaros

I wonder if finite-charge builders are particular issue for AI performance.  Hypothesis - in both Civ6 and earlier versions, AI can get into trouble not doing enough tile improvers especially in midgame and on (when just more build options, so probably the ‘choose worker/builder’ probability goes down).  But in the new finite charge system, the consequences are worse for AI, they may stop improving tiles completely instead of doing them slowly

Religion bugs...

Yep, the holy sites disappear from the map as Kongo in captured cities but you still get the fatih.  This lasted until end of game (also, Monty had taken Feed the World and that worked for these captured Aztec shrines/temples too!).  I also got the boost for Divine Right from captured invisible temples - I never researched that civic, but it did satisfy a Lisbon quest!  Was also eligible to buy missionaries here (but never did).  Man what a buggy product this is….


Another AI thing: norway has always seemed to have 6 apostles + missionaries running around, but only now converted themselves!  They were the only AI that seemed to have shot at religion win but I didn’t need much to stop them, they got India majority-Protestant at times but never close to flipping me.  Would have been nice to enjoy the Church Property but worried that majority protestanting myself would leave him too close to winning.  I did have to sleep my Protestant Apostles (from TS/Mbanza, bug allows faith buying but saved faith for a bit of GP patronage) and use the non-Protestant (mostly Monty’s Eastern Orthodoxy).  Also got complaints from both Norway and India for conversion (surprised at the latter, converted an Indian city that was currently following Norway’s religions)

Back to the main narrative, as the settler wave continues.  

Overview at 150  

At this point I was basically done expanding.  Still in my 2nd Colonial war with Fred but have left him with one city, just waiting for the 10 turns before making peace.  This shot of the northeast is a good representation of the self-founded cities (plus conquered CS).  The northwest had a few decent spots but decided with the escalating settler / builder costs and likely micromanagement fatigue, I could leave them empty.


Warmonger management worked!  La Venta was an -18 hit though.  I had thought about maybe conquering a few more CS that weren’t too useful (Preslav, its surezian bonus was sure nice during main wars but I’m not building more units now, the non-Stockholm science CS aren’t very useful now that I have Industrialization + Steel), but thought 18 per CS was a lot.  

So some notes on city/empire/GP development in the 2nd half; this is rather wall-of-text but there were a lot of patterns.  Also I needed to speed up my play to finish by deadline so went a bit generic.  (One of the weaknesses of the civ6 terrain I think, is that hills>all, so if a place has several good production tiles the rest of terrain is a bit of afterthought in the midgame when you can use one or two TR’s for food. Getting more lux is nice but it seems that maps tend to only have ~10 distinct ones so after a certain point they don’t matter much.  Fresh water didn’t matter since I had Mohenjo-Daro so all these cities could be managed about 95% identically with little efficiency loss).  
-most every self-founded city had CH and TS.  I could tell at some point that was going to reach all the possible merchants from those district points alone, so didn’t build very many CH buildings.  Also had some coastal cities do Harbor over CH for that reason.  (but, hmm, the +16 gold in CH from two city states is like 2.1 anything-you-want-GP points/turn with the lategame Democracy patronage, maybe should have just done that).  But more than half of the TS cities went all the way to Broadcast Towers, there are a ton of those GP to recruit and with Kongo’s doubling the buildings > GP projects until very late.  

-for 3rd district, IZ most common, also some encampments/harbors.  Wanted to have a diversity of GP projects available.  
-Picked a few cities for 9-tile (Toronto) Factory/Power Plants but other IZ cities stopped after Workshop.
-had a few Campuses but mostly avoiding them.  Built zero buildings for them besides Newton’s University.  Industrialization and Steel useful as usual but everything after that in tech is almost worthless, and Computers would be bad since worrying about premature cultural victory.  So don’t want to bring the Computers date sooner (it is mandatory eventually, though you can put it almost-last before future tech) and decided that more important than getting Industrialization/Steel faster.  I also played around with idea of DOW Hattusa and Seoul just to slow down science but didn’t, largely because of fearing diplo complications.  Didn’t know if another AI auto-becomes Surezian and if the war then involves them.  
-more notes on Science - didn’t use the Great Scientists I got after Newton, and was picking my tech route through the last three eras mostly trying to avoid boosts!  (get to Flight before Ruhr Valley, Adv Ballistics before building power plants, Plastics before building a well, etc).  All about delaying computers.  
-used first 3 or 4 writers and 1 artist, then stopped deploying the cultural GP out of tourism fears).  Starting around T125 I was watching for AI amphitheatres and was selling off great works as the slots became available.  
-with most cities building Tsquares culture really took off, I did boosts for Civil Engineering, Colonialism, and Mobilization (the ‘Scout Corps’ has to be one of the silliest-yet-effective mechanics…)  but mostly just chugged through the latter parts of the tree without boosts.  Think latter culture goals Democracy, then Conservation, then Ecommerce.  As far as the cost formulas culture was definitely ahead.  
-Not sure if doing Conservation was best idea.  Planting forests for lumbermills is good but I didn’t do a ton of it - partially because.  Partially because of hill abundance on this map not that many cities really needed them, and partially due to sheer number of cities and builders, builder cost was at 250 hammers at T150 and 330 hammers by the end  (I was also having some management fatigue from so many cities).  As usual having to do the Archaeologist one meant losing some hill-mines to the stupid ruins spawning on them (and with tourism fears, not going to dig those up until it’s time to win.  )
-Was trying to build builders in core cities and ship them out to the new cities (since they have the 30% Public Works boost) but was hard to keep up with growth, so did some builder-buy as well.  Most of these new cities got all of monument/granary/water mill rush bought with that huge gold income; once those buildings done started saving gold around T157.
-Amenities eventually went pretty negative, Colosseum (done T144) only a temp band aid.   The latter Great Merchants with unique luxuries helped a bit. For much of the latter game most cities at -2, and a few at -3 but I didn’t see any rebels.  (I don’t know exactly where rebels start, -3 has “Unhappy” instead of “Displeased”...). .  Really didn’t want headache of rebels but the penalties for -amenities short of rebels just not very high.   I didn’t do any more ECs though - it just seems counterproductive, I want pop for districts for GP points.  (Suppose with Stadium, an EC does provide several districts worth of amenities, but that’s a lot of hammers too).   Did try to limit growth past size 7 in a lot of cities though that mostly came naturally, working several -1 food plains hills or lumbermills slows growth to a crawl.  Once Ecommerce in I repointed most trade routes to CS so they stopping giving food.  In the long run, it got fixed with the Estado wonder (T216).
-Wonders:  Forbidden City in Kwila (not that nice, with delaying Printing it came at T171, after Democracy + Adam Smith...marginal value of a 7th wildcard/econ card not that great).  
-Alhambra about T180- was disappointed after finishing, I wanted to add Retainers and have every city build a cheap Spearman for happiness only to find that policy obsoletes in one of the modern civics.  Was still ok, some value out of having Logistics (+1 moves), Veterancy (30% on encampment district/buildings), and actually put the 2 gold per unit savings in the wildcard quite a bit.

-Big Ben started T177 in a moderately strong city; no particular rush to finish it (I wanted to double a giant treasury so could wait while that grew, another econ slot not very important), and would switch off to other things when it was close for a while.
-Ruhr in the Aztec capital T191 (what a monster city, endless hills and the watermill wheats to get enough )
-Great People:  by T150 3 AI got to Renaissance which meant only Industrial and later people spawned, but I managed a clean sweep from there.  I was making calcs on when to do buildings vs districts, though I screwed them all up because I was assuming T250 end and game ended sooner than that.  Lots of them spawned in Tenochtitlan, and stupid 1UPT rules means you can’t just leave them there, so had to do this

Some also deployed as fogbusters, etc.  
I was relying on the district/building points for Merchants and TSquare people, started doing some district projects for Generals/Admirals/Engineers.  Saved Scientists for gold patronage (as the way that wouldn’t produce more science).  


Oops, I had used one of the merchants that boosts tourism.  Had stopped all my TR to the AI but didn’t realize the tourism would kick in if they sent me one.  Still had 3 writings + 3 artworks I couldn’t get rid of as none of the AI’s had slots but Monty gave me a cheap solution

Yeah too easy, DOW and steal the settler +2x exposed builders (all these guys had been standing there for a dozen turns at least).  

This tundra spot would allow 4x forest and 1x deer chopping, enough to finish a TS, Ampitheatre, and Art Museum.  I could then sell it to Norway then gift them all my great works; Spain helpfully did an Ampitheatre about same time to get last Writing, and no threat for culture.  But, all this was maybe overkill, around T200 the AI’s seemed to turn a corner and started averaging about 1 tourist per turn, and the end was actually a lot closer than I thought.  

So about this time realized the AI’s were doing better, and did some math on the remaining great people, realized I would probably be able to buy them before 250 (Big Ben still hasn’t doubled my gold yet).  So actually reversed policy and researched Computers now.  My terminal rates (not counting projects)  were
Generals - 87/turn
Admirals - 32/turn
Engineer - 95/turn
Sci - 25/turn
Artists - 312/turn
Musicians - 255/turn
(Merchants, Writers were both > 200 turn but have finished by now).  

Should have ended this faster.  I delayed Big Ben until T226, think I was going through the motions.  That brought the treasury to 295,000 gold and was a lot more than I needed to actually buy all the remaining GP - only needed about 130K of that (heck, didn’t need the doubler at this point!).  I think I was confused on counts - thought there were 4 writers/artists/musicians per era and 3 per era for other types, but seems the Info era has a bit fewer for some. 


Anyways to actually win, tourism seemed like quickest exit.  Starting a few turns earlier I woke up and started filling great work slots, adapted the tourism policies, send traders to AI’s.  Also the late Great Merchant with 10 tourism per IZ added several hundred in one shot!


Here’s result from actually using some of those slots etc sitting around, up to 15 tourists/turn now and won on 228.   I probably didn’t find all the writers/artists/musicians I had lying around, and some were still waiting to find homes for their masterpieces.  (Yet another clunky 1UPT thing, the great people create multiple works but that uses their turn, and they have to be on the TS district so there is some bottlenecking/blocking.  In fairness to the designers, this would happen really rarely if you are trying to win culture normally and using each one as soon as you earn it. )

One last humor shot:

That was the result of buying 9 scientists.  I think they go to the first city founded with the right district and most of the others spawned at Tenochtitlan (not my capital as I used a turn to move at the start).  Ugh, have to move all of them before ending turn.  Just let this end already!


Had fun, but again was racing against real life, I just can’t play or report very quickly.  Was fun to plan out one score game that involved some milking but probably don’t want to do another like this for a while.

[shinghand]

Thanks Woden - yes 130 confirmed.

Holy shit, 130?!

Extremely well played game, kudos!

[Dp101]

That was terrifying.

[MJW (ya that one)]

As I said in Archduke thread you could have solved the problem by loading the last of the relics in a single city and gifting it. I'm sure you would have found this trick if you had time to get to turn 250 and needed a way to get there.

How many points would you have gotten in Epic 2? I'm sure that it would be a lot higher that 184. I'd also like you to break down your score to see where your points came from. (Edit: I consider anything above 200 points as 'much higher' due to the scoring system that epic used.)

Use spoilers for big posts next time, shinghand.

[Woden]

I though someone would get high 70s, low 80s but NOT 130! Well played!

[RefSteel]

Terrific report of an amazing game! 130 Great People? A clean sweep of every Great Person existing in the game past the Renaissance era? And I loved the way you reported on the events of your game and your strategic choices rather than detailing all the specific GPs (the latter would have been a lonnnnnnnnnnnng wall of text of course...). Also, new game mechanics knowledge! For instance:

Ceding seems like a never-do choice now; regardless of whether they cede or not the occupation (no growth/heavy penalty on all other yields) goes away when peace signed.

Can this be right? Somebody tell the PbeM crowd if so; it sounds like Sullla's proposed work-around for the occupation penalty has (now) been built into the game! Although ... if that's the case, what is the point of having "ceding" in the game? Does the occupation penalty come back for non-ceded cities if war is later re-declared or something?

[MJW (ya that one)]

Oh I mis-read the OP. Clean sweep is amazing.

[pindicator]

That's an amazing result. Well played timmy!