OSG-28

[RefSteel]

Could you post a link, please? The manual says that every level of Robotic Controls increases factory cost by 50%, and for refitting, you simply have to pay the difference between the previous and current cost. Is it actually more complicated than that? I could imagine some weird edge cases when you discover better Robotic Controls while you're refitting, but I never had that happen.

No link off the top of my head, but it's even simpler, actually: The cost of a new factory is equal to your Industrial Tech level (starts at 10) times your Robotic Controls Level (starts at 2) divided by two. That's it. There is no cost to "refit" old factories. (To a first approximation, at least. Sargon once indicated that there was a one-time cost to refit all factories on a world equal to the supposed refit cost of a single factory! If true, this effect is obviously very small though, and I've never observed it experimentally.) As such, the best timing for getting new Robotic Controls tech is an interesting question: Undeveloped planets want to delay it while they build new factories, but maxed-out planets (especially when they're rich) want it ASAP so they can get more infrastructure into play.

The math isn't hard: If we're low tech, a factory costs ~10 bc, but on a poor world, we actually have to spend ~20 bc to build it. When it's done, it produces ~0.5 bc per turn, after pollution clean-up. Thus, it takes the factory approximately 40 turns to pay for itself.

Exactly! And in our present case, Reduced Waste 80 means each factory produces a net average of 0.6 per turn instead of 0.5 ... but the factories cost 12 BC apiece (24 on a Poor world) thanks to II8 and RC3, so the return horizon still comes out to an average of (24 / 0.6 = ...) exactly 40 turns!

[Ianus]

I'm curious about a couple of things:
1. I noticed in this game that the turn immediately after IRC3 came in all factory spending on our four worlds which had already maxed factories was listed as Refit no matter how much was applied, whereas our northern planets which were still building their <2x factories still displayed the number of factories to be built and didn't say Refit.  Is there some point that the cost increase is applied that is related to factories built instead of "upon discovery of tech" and how does that apply to developing colonies versus new colonies founded later. The whole thing seems a bit unfathomable.
2. In general from my own experience I tend to believe that about the refit cost of a single factory.  I should have payed attention to what happened in this game I noticed that as I said the game displayed Refit no matter how much spending is applied, but I know that some number of factories are built under that Refit heading.
That's all.

[haphazard1]

Mining event at our homeworld. Quite a lucky break, there.

OK, looks like I am up next. I will need to look over the save to figure out what is most needed, but it looks like more development of our newer worlds while advancing tech generally? We are not yet ready for offensive war, and if fortunate will not need to defend ourselves quite yet. Silicoids are moving about, but we do not have contact yet. (May come quite soon, though.)

Anything else of great urgency I should be thinking of? Using Mentar to feed the reserve and accelerate our still-developing worlds sounds good. Spying? Missile bases? Other?

[RefSteel]

The "REFIT" that shows up on the Industry slider is bugged, and doesn't reflect what the world will actually produce. It behaves exactly as if the refit cost for the planet's existing factories were infinity, when in fact the refit cost you will actually pay are either 0 (my experience, not tested thoroughly) or tiny (Sargon's analysis.)

haphazard: I haven't seen the latest save, but the main thing I'd suggest is, have fun! (Back to work now...)

[haphazard1]

The "refit" thing is definitely odd. It does not act like I would expect it to, if it truly behaved the way the decription of IRC techs makes it sound.

OK, this is an official "Got it!" I will see just what I think our glorious empire needs at the moment, and try to advance the cause of Psilon domination of the galaxy. Those trans-whatever-they-are thoughts are not going to think themselves, after all.

[haphazard1]

As the latest Psilon to assume the role of "emperor" (such a strange mode of thought, but the other species the Psilons had met in the galaxy seemed to expect it and it had proven useful in dealing with them), let us spend a few moments considering That Which Is.

Our fleet strength is (unsurprisingly for impossible) miniscule. Our tech also lags behind...for now. But our population and production are very competitive with our neighbors, and since we are the Psilons equal production will with time become a tech advantage.

We have trade, decent relations, and NAPs with the Bulrathi and Darloks.

The bears have some advanced planetology tech, in addition to good weapons, duralloy armor, and personal deflector shields. Not an easy target for conquest, but at least they are lacking missiles and bombs beyond basic nukes.

Our report on the Darloks is 11 years old, and as such has not changed from previous information.

Our region of the galaxy, and our neighbors. Note that the two stars in the upper center between us and the Bulrathi where we have scout ships -- both have no planets. So there is no way for us to reach the western half of the galaxy without more advanced range tech...or going through our neighbors, or getting alliances to refuel from their worlds.

(The unflagged star on the east edge of the map, a bit south of center, is Orion.)

I decide the most critical task for the Psilons at this time is to complete the development of our newer colony worlds, while also pushing research as best we can on a broad basis in all fields. We are not yet ready to build fleets, due to our tech disadvantages, and with good relations with our neighbors missile bases are also not a priority. With our production solidly developed on our mature worlds, we can add missile bases swiftly if we decide there is need.

So I pursue the following policies:

- Mentar feeds its available production into the planetary reserves
- Kulthos, Argus, and Paranar draw upon the reserves to accelerate their factory building
- Firma stops factory production and shifts to research spending, to help cover some of what Mentar was providing.
- Firma also ships population to Kulthos, Argus, and Paranar to max their populations as quickly as possible. Those worlds are much more valuable than Firma.

Some quiet years follow. In 2393 our spies penetrate a Bulrathi research center, hitting in all fields. I hesitate for a long minute over which field to pick; force fields, weapons, and planetology all have valuable possibilities. I decide to try Planetology, hoping to grab Terraforming+40. But we get Controlled Barren.

The Bulrathi are not amused, and relations drop to Unease.

This was probably a mistake on my part, since we already had Terraforming+30 and any of the bear's weapons would have been a solid upgrade for us. Unforced error on my part.

A couple years later, our report on the Bulrathi shows they are now allied with the Silicoids, and no longer allied with the Sakkra. The bears have also just developed (in the last 2 years) Soil Enrichment tech. The bears are really piling on the planetology spending, and are going to have some huge worlds.

Research on Class III deflector shields completes, and we have Deflectors IV and Class V Planetary Shield at the next rung. I select the planetary shield.

The following year Kulthos maxes out both pop and factories, and shifts to full research spending. Duralloy Armor also completes. Our options:

While reduced waste 60% would boost all our worlds, I decide it is time to start working on a major military tech and go for the ARS. With it on a big ship, we can build some battle platforms that can stay in a fight and slug it out with the enemy.

The following year GNN reports that a terrible plague has struck the Sakkra colony at Hyades. Better the lizards than us!

In 2399 Argus maxes out pop and factories. I had been feeding reserve spending into Argus and Paranar for the last several years, providing a big boost to their growth curves. (At the cost of putting Mentar's production into the reserves, of course.)

The 2400 council vote arrives, and the nominees are Monch of the Bulrathi and us. 38 votes total, so 26 required to win.

Klackons (6 votes) abstain.
Sakkras (4 votes) abstain.
Silicoids (5 votes) for the Bulrathi. (They have an alliance.)
Bulrathi (7 votes) for themselves.
Darloks (7 votes) abstain.
Us (9 votes) will not affect the result either way, so I vote for Monch to boost relations with the Bulrathi. No one but us to be offended, either. This helps smooth over that little spying incident earlier, and brings relations back up to Neutral.

Paranar maxes out factories, and is just 2 short of max pop. So except for Firma, our other planets are all fully developed for our current technology.

Our empire in 2400:

The bigger picture:

The Darlok fleet, currently orbiting Proteus:

And the bears at Toranor have been piling on the missile bases:

Overall, I think our position is decent. We have the most population, despite the bears having better terraforming and soil enrichment. Our production is competitive with the Bulrathi and Darloks, so our technology should catch up given some time. With our worlds mostly mature, we can think about when to engage in fleet building and what types of ships we might need to crack our neighbors' defenses. Some very useful military tech is in the pipeline. We may want to build some more missile bases, and we will get planetary shields down the road. We do not have enough population to single-handedly block a council vote, so we need to avoid having the whole galaxy against us when the next council election happens.

[shallow_thought]

Could you post a link, please? The manual says that every level of Robotic Controls increases factory cost by 50%, and for refitting, you simply have to pay the difference between the previous and current cost. Is it actually more complicated than that? I could imagine some weird edge cases when you discover better Robotic Controls while you're refitting, but I never had that happen.

The thread was here:
http://www.realmsbeyond.net/forums/showt...p?tid=6749

Wandering a bit off topic - Maybe there's space for a variant game as Klackons where you're not allowed to build (or capture?) factories anywhere. How low a difficulty level would you need? It might be slightly more sensible to say you cant build any before a certain IRC level (IV?, V?).

May I recommend a look at Imperium 15?  And as a matter of shameless self-promotion, my report of my own playthrough....

There is nothing new under light of the suns... I did think about checking before I posted. Something to read - along with Haphazard's report, which I'm about to get to.

[DaveV]

On declaring war against one of the AIs: it seems like the only path to expansion, but it's dangerous. Because of the AIs' promiscuous alliances, it's difficult to single out the weak gazelle from the herd. Instead, we're likely to face the biggest and scariest alpha males.

On spying: I usually choose Computer tech if it's available, since that improves my odds on future spying attempts, and increases my defense against the AIs' constant spying.

[haphazard1]

I should have chosen something else on the spy penetration. Anything else, really -- I think I got the most useless tech possible of everything the Bulrathi had. Sorry for the mistake.

I wish we had some idea of what is on those Darlok designs. That is a lot of ships, including a bunch of big ones. If they have older weapons, then they might not be much of a threat. But if they have merculite missiles on those small ships, or decent gun/beam weapons on the bigger ones, then they could be a serious problem. We have class III deflectors right now, so our ships will be vulnerable to everything even basic lasers. Our missile bases much less so due to the half damage effect against planetary targets, and when we get Class V planetary shields our defenses will be quite strong. But offense...that is a LOT of missile bases the bears have, even if they are firing basic nukes for now.

[shallow_thought]

I should have chosen something else on the spy penetration. Anything else, really -- I think I got the most useless tech possible of everything the Bulrathi had. Sorry for the mistake.

I wish we had some idea of what is on those Darlok designs. That is a lot of ships, including a bunch of big ones. If they have older weapons, then they might not be much of a threat. But if they have merculite missiles on those small ships, or decent gun/beam weapons on the bigger ones, then they could be a serious problem. We have class III deflectors right now, so our ships will be vulnerable to everything even basic lasers. Our missile bases much less so due to the half damage effect against planetary targets, and when we get Class V planetary shields our defenses will be quite strong. But offense...that is a LOT of missile bases the bears have, even if they are firing basic nukes for now.

Is there a diplo penalty for sending an unarmed ship with a battle scanner to have a peek at the fleet (I'm guessing yes, at least while we have a NAP) , and is it worth it anyway?

I'm happy to report my first win on Impossible! In my practice game the Klackons ground out a conquest ( > 2/3 of all votes) in a small galaxy against Darloks, Mrrshans and Humans (wierd that the Darloks were the competition yet again, as the early runaway cats faded in the mid-game while the Humans were a distant last). I found some of the ideas discussed in this thread invaluable.