Dave's Not Throwing Away His Shot

[kjn]

I note that you don't mention hoplites. Any reason why?

[Zero_1627]

I note that you don't mention hoplites. Any reason why?

because they're pricy and horsemen are more flexible?...

EDIT: at least that's my take. Horsemen are much faster, which is a serious advantage, especially vs other players. Oledavy's comments give me impression that he considers Hoplites to be overpriced (and general opinion about them isn't very high either from what I see)

[oledavy]

I note that you don't mention hoplites. Any reason why?

Zero basically hit the hammer on the head, although I'm unsure if you are referring to me building hoplites or the potential of Archduke building them. For my own part, I consider them too costly to be worthwhile, except as a counter to horsemen in the period before swordsmen. If Agoge applied to them they'd be fantastic, but it doesn't...

In regards to Zero's question. I probably will invade Archduke eventually. Knocking him out of the running and absorbing his land is probably a prerequisite to winning. However, that's a long ways off at this point, and I definitely won't be invading him in the next 20 turns or so. Once I get swordsmen, however, all bets are off 

It will largely depend what things are looking like around then though. Archduke's power spike is due in the next 10-30 turns or so, so all I realistically need to do is not give up ground and I come out ahead. 

Anyway, speaking of Archduke. 



He either got greedy, misunderstood the situation, or just wasn't thinking. In any event, he moved his scout to the campus. Pillaging it would have been a massive boon to him and a massive setback to me. However, he knew before he moved it there that I would be able to shoot the tile, and he should have known you need all your movement points to pillage. Now, perhaps he thought I couldn't kill him, and if that had happened it would have been a smart move for him. However, previously my archer took out 50 HP when he was on the hill east of Hamilton. Surviving here was not likely, and indeed, I killed him. 

Moving away would have been smarter. He could have healed, been a bigger pain, and forced me to keep an archer around to defend the campus. Now, I can move the archer to kill the barb encampment by Seoul or move it to Schuyler, almost certainly the latter. He also gave me 5 free culture: 



Unfortunately, because the designers of this game were sloppy, you don't get overflow culture from it. So a good 3 culture or so there went to waste. On the plus side, this means I didn't need to waste the large 7 culture influx from Hong Kong's archer to finish Early Empire, so Archduke did me a solid there. 

My new government: 



Builder will still complete in 1t from Hamilton, then it will be time to get another settler going. 

Another minor note: 



I fail at math, and didn't realize that the archer only gives 5 strength to the city instead of 10. That makes my defensive position here less tenable, but only slightly. Archduke's power did go up 8 this turn. I think I definitely will not be greedy and move my archer from Hamilton here. I decided to move my archer back into the city instead of using it to bombard his encampment. There was a possibility I could have been outflanked, isolated, and killed by a horseman, and I didn't want to take that chance with my only defensive unit in the south right now. 

Anyway, onto the First Opium War. 



Hong Kong did a smart attack with its archer, a dumb attack with its warrior, and moved the builder into the City Center. All more or less expected moves. 

So, here are the moves I made: 



Finished off the warrior and the archer for a neat 17 culture. I've now earned 49 from the ability (well, minus 3 or so due to dumb game mechanics). That brought the ETA for political Philosophy down to 8 turns. The warrior that killed the archer can promote next turn. I think I definitely will be burning some fields to regain health and speed this thing along. The warrior southwest of the city fortified to heal. 

Here was the situation before I ended turn: 



I don't expect that warrior will attack out. I wonder if I'll get culture for killing it? Anyway, we're now onto reducing the city center. I'm hoping most of my military can walk away from here with their tier 1 promotions. We shall see. The city should be under siege for next turn, but I don't trust the game on that score. Can anyone confirm for me that the city should indeed be besieged?

[Dp101]

Love the breakdown of the combat with the arrows, makes it quite easy to follow the events of the "war".

[kjn]

Yeah, Zero pointed out that you covered hoplites - in detail - in an earlier turn report.

Also, do you know if the culture from kills only hit the general pool? That would make the culture from kills less useful than city-generated culture.

[Zero_1627]

No overflow from kills confirmed? That's indeed very sloppy
Question, though - is following maneuver possible:
- change research to something else (that can accept large influx of culture without completing)
- kill whatever needs killing
- switch research back, to complete needed tech naturally (and with usual overflow)

Bonus question: do You get culture from defensive kills? I know that probability of such is low, but it exists in melee combat. EDIT: I see You basically wonder the same thing, and maybe we'll get to know


As for Archduke scout: good for You! A slap to his hands and increased security for You, both good.
Perhaps he got greedy and thought Scout would survive one more shot? That would be exchange of Scout (and some XP for You, as You would have killed it a turn later) for pillaging Campus, which would be a huge setback for You (and a boon for him, well worthy sacrificing a Scout). Or just didn't know pillage requirements (they differ from Civ4 from what You say, although are in line with general movement rules in Civ6) - game is brand new for multiplayer here, and mechanics details aren't widely known yet.

Also, requiring full movement to pillage means no unstoppable quick pillagers! (assuming You can kill them quick enough that is).

I didn't want to take that chance with my only defensive unit in the south right now.

good, greed kills

Can anyone confirm for me that the city should indeed be besieged?

I do NOT think so - zone of control doesn't extent through river, so both hexes on the opposite bank are unblocked (at least I think so based on Your screenshot).

[Zero_1627]

Question: can You make markers on map, like You could in Civ4? If so, You may mark named features on map, so names would be visible on screenshots!
EDIT: ...like You mark intended encampment and city sites?... They seem to be in-game rather than manually added to screenshots...

[Zero_1627]

Also, do you know if the culture from kills only hit the general pool? That would make the culture from kills less useful than city-generated culture.

Frankly I don't see an option of "combat" culture going into city culture - are there any other areas that do count culture and aren't location-related?... If not, then general pool seems to be the only option.

EDIT: unless Skull Throne wonder is added, it could count there

[oledavy]

Love the breakdown of the combat with the arrows, makes it quite easy to follow the events of the "war".

No problem! Provided I have time, I'll try to do it every turn I'm fighting in this game.

Also, do you know if the culture from kills only hit the general pool? That would make the culture from kills less useful than city-generated culture.

It only hits the general pool, unless I have been missing something all along. All this invites a comparison to Rome. If I had played Rome, and settled my second city on the same turn, by this point in the game I would have earned 122 additional culture, which all would have gone to acquiring tiles as well. Meanwhile, Thermopylae has earned me 49. 

I think this just adds more evidence to the pile that Rome > Greece in just about every way. 

No overflow from kills confirmed? That's indeed very sloppy 
Question, though - is following maneuver possible:
- change research to something else (that can accept large influx of culture without completing)
- kill whatever needs killing
- switch research back, to complete needed tech naturally (and with usual overflow)

Bonus question: do You get culture from defensive kills? I know that probability of such is low, but it exists in melee combat. EDIT: I see You basically wonder the same thing, and maybe we'll get to know 

Can anyone confirm for me that the city should indeed be besieged?

I do NOT think so - zone of control doesn't extent through river, so both hexes on the opposite bank are unblocked (at least I think so based on Your screenshot).

Your maneuver is feasible, and it definitely will be something I will be using in the future to make sure none goes to waste. However, here if I wanted to sink all that culture into Military Tradition, for example, it would have cost me the potential to put 17 culture into Political Philosophy. It's less than ideal, but I will still gladly sacrifice ~3 culture to get to political philosophy 3.4 turns faster. 

I don't know regarding defensive kills. I may need to try and test it in SP sometime. 

I didn't know ZoC didn't work through rivers. Thanks for that! I should have it under siege on the current turn. If not, well, I'll post a screenshot and lurkers can tell me what I did wrong this time. 

Question: can You make markers on map, like You could in Civ4? If so, You may mark named features on map, so names would be visible on screenshots!
EDIT: ...like You mark intended encampment and city sites?... They seem to be in-game rather than manually added to screenshots...

You can. I'd rather keep my geographic names from cluttering up the already cluttered board, as they are not essential to helping me play my turn and are purely for flavor. Stuff like city locations, district locations, and notes to myself I like to keep, as they allow me to quickly play the save without having to consult elsewhere if I'm facing a time crunch.

[oledavy]

Turn 46

Aw man, we live in exciting times. Most of the scary stuff happened on t47 though. For now, turn 46. 

The latest turn of war: 



The northernmost warrior promoted to Battlecry, and the northeastern one fortified. My archers fired upon the city. Here was the final configuration. 



However, it would turn out that this configuration did not put the city under siege. 



In the east, Seoul's 2nd warrior reappeared, having cleared the encampment. They also built a slinger. Most awesome, they did me a solid and hooked up their coffee, immedietly granting it to me and boosting my yields through amenities. Thanks bro!   This also frees me up from improving Schuyler's coffee, and giving Archduke a free improvement to pillage. 

In the south: 



Almost missed the barb camp spawn. Detailed my archer from Schuyler to go clear it. 

Meanwhile: 



Archduke is mobilizing something. His power has started going up, it's at nearly 80 now, and that's with losing the scout. There' something giving 7 str. to his capital. Looks like it's about time for Death Valley to start earning it's name.