Dave's Not Throwing Away His Shot

[oledavy]

Turn 61 - 1 HP

Every turn feels tense and like the end of the world when you're fighting in a PBEM, but this one was especially tense for me. So, let's see what Archduke did. 



Time for a really big choice. I took a walk, and thought it over. 

The stone could be harvested for 61 cogs, enough to spit out a horseman and then allow for the completion of the encampment on t62. Moreover, with his full invasion underway, I desperately needed a horseman now to protect Lafayette. I did the math, and barring bad damage rolls, figured out that with the addition of a horseman, I should be able to kill one of his. Completing the encampment with the stone would be an awesome move, but it's one that protects Schuyler and sets me up to take BA, not protect Lafayette. Moreover, I couldn't overlook the firm possibility that completing the encampment would not boot the horse from the hex, and he would just pillage it. Completing another type of district certainly wouldn't do so. Moreover, due to the awesome power of multiplied cogs, Spitting out a horseman this turn would not delay the completion of the encampment significantly, nor slow my timeline to Military Training. Finally, since his horse on that hill is now eating two bolts per turn, I expect it won't be there when I open the next save, leaving me free to execute my plan risk free. 

With all this in mind, I made the decision to go for the no risk option, and chopped out a horseman instead of chopping the encampment.

Here's the situation right afterwards:  



Alright, all my pieces are on the board now, let's look at the entire battlespace. 



Archduke is pressing his attack hard. Note the hoplite. There's likely one more of those - since one by itself doesn't get the Hoplite unique bonus. I'm a little surprised he build one honestly. No though, he's making a full press on Lafayette. The good thing is, that should be just about all his units. He has 200 power, and all that represents about 183 undamaged, probably about ~165 in it's current state. He has one or two more units lurking around. 

The other good thing is that Sun Tzu does not effect his hoplite or archers, just the horsemen. The horsemen are and conitnue to be terrifying, however. 

In the east, Singaboy cleaned up a third archer from Seoul, and appears to be setting up to take the city. His power is at 172



As of this power ranking, my neighbors have 200 and 172 power (372 total) to my 183. They're both seemingly in total war mode at this point. I expect Singaboy has significant forces on the way to Seoul. 

My priority in the west this turn was using my existing units to kill a horseman, and significantly reduce Archduke's striking power. 



Two archer bolts, a horseman, and a warrior attack later, I killed the northeastern horseman for 18 culture (96 so far). The warrior survived with 1HP, and will almost certainly be nailed on the counterattack. I really wanted this guy, one of my two with Battlecry, to be one of the ones I upgrade into swords. However, duty called. His sacrifice will be remembered in the coming empire. Note the flanking bonus I was able to build up with smart positioning - it's what made this attack work. 

Schuyler and the archer in it concentrated fire on the horseman on the hill, while my northern battlecry warrior moved to zone of Archduke's archers. 

Meanwhile, in the east: 



I really do think I can continue to prevent Seoul's fall with just these two units. I got my first archer shot in this turn, and moved my horseman onto the road for more movement options next turn. I'm hoping Singaboy moves in and commits to an attack, and then I can surprise him with my horse and kill a sword. He hasn't seen my horseman in awhile, and may think it went to fight Archduke. I considered doing that, but it's presence here is vital to keeping Seoul free for now, and it would arrive too late to make a significant difference in the battles to the west. On the plus side, next turn I get another horseman to play with, courtesy of Hamilton. 

Here are all the moves, and the battlespace at the end of the turn. 



I'm anticipating a strong counterattack from Archduke, possibly killing my horseman, but definitely killing at least one unit. However, I will say I think the momentum of this conflict is turning against him at this point. If he keeps up his assault, I think I can eliminate his army and then march on BA. We're not out of the woods yet, but things are looking better than they were. I just want to also say that I love combat against humans in this game. This is truly exhilarating.

Internationally, Alhambram continues to close in on a Great Prophet: 



Not sure that's the best move. 

Singaboy closes in on Political Philosophy, and finished Early Empire last turn. 



No though, I'm less nervous, going into next turn, than I was going into this one. My opponents are both fighting very well. I hope this business with the campus gets ironed out smoothly, but I'm increasingly inclinded to agree with Ichabod's read (although I am of course a little biased here). Still, I will say that's wildly counterintuitive to what I expected. 

So, I have the save for about 10 more hours. I need community input. Would it be kosher to go back, chop the encampment, and see if it moves Archduke's horseman? I feel like this is important information for any future Civ6 games, and the scenario is incredibly hard to create in SP - so there likely won't be another chance to test it. Still, it gives me information Archduke would not be privy to and that would alter the events of my turn. Thoughts?

[oledavy]

From watching Archduke, I think I can infer that crossing a river onto a flatland tile takes 3 move points, and a forest or hill on the tile makes it cost 4. If this was not the case, He could have gotten one more flanking bonus onto the warrior he attacked on t60.

[Rowain]

(I also doubt a pillaged Commercial Hub makes you lose the extra TR).

Don't know about the campus but a pillaged Harbour does cost you a TR-slot - it does not stop any currently running TR.

[srgtb]

You could have created a hotseat duel map to test it.

But other players have previously said in the organizing thread that they expect people to not replay turns: Post 217.

[Mardoc]

So, I have the save for about 10 more hours. I need community input. Would it be kosher to go back, chop the encampment, and see if it moves Archduke's horseman? I feel like this is important information for any future Civ6 games, and the scenario is incredibly hard to create in SP - so there likely won't be another chance to test it. Still, it gives me information Archduke would not be privy to and that would alter the events of my turn. Thoughts?

I hate to say this, but I'd say not kosher now. It's on the borderline, and I could certainly make an argument for it being ok (something about it being deterministic not RNG), but general RB philosophy is to be extra careful on questions of fairness.

That said: keep the save and try it in a week, once it can no longer affect this game.

[Jabah]

So, I have the save for about 10 more hours. I need community input. Would it be kosher to go back, chop the encampment, and see if it moves Archduke's horseman? I feel like this is important information for any future Civ6 games, and the scenario is incredibly hard to create in SP - so there likely won't be another chance to test it. Still, it gives me information Archduke would not be privy to and that would alter the events of my turn. Thoughts?

I hate to say this, but I'd say not kosher now.  It's on the borderline, and I could certainly make an argument for it being ok (something about it being deterministic not RNG), but general RB philosophy is to be extra careful on questions of fairness.

That said: keep the save and try it in a week, once it can no longer affect this game.

Can't a (global) lurker try it with the save  and just answer the single question (here or in the lurker only thread if more appropriate)

[Zero_1627]

I'd say sandbox it all You want, but in the actual save - what You get is what You get, and if it's something else than You expect You have to live with it.

...come to think of it, this stance also makes Campus issue a non-issue (game behaves this way and so it is, whatever player(s) expected).

[Mardoc]

So, I have the save for about 10 more hours. I need community input. Would it be kosher to go back, chop the encampment, and see if it moves Archduke's horseman? I feel like this is important information for any future Civ6 games, and the scenario is incredibly hard to create in SP - so there likely won't be another chance to test it. Still, it gives me information Archduke would not be privy to and that would alter the events of my turn. Thoughts?

I hate to say this, but I'd say not kosher now.  It's on the borderline, and I could certainly make an argument for it being ok (something about it being deterministic not RNG), but general RB philosophy is to be extra careful on questions of fairness.

That said: keep the save and try it in a week, once it can no longer affect this game.

Can't a (global) lurker try it with the save  and just answer the single question (here or in the lurker only thread if more appropriate)

When you put it that way, that would be within the bounds of traditional RB-OK. Global lurkers are always allowed to answer specific questions about game mechanics.

[Zero_1627]

When you put it that way, that would be within the bounds of traditional RB-OK.  Global lurkers are always allowed to answer specific questions about game mechanics.

Well, but not necessarily playtest in actual game... If they can say so based on their own games (or sadboxes) or whatever, fine - but load actual game and just do an action?... I'd say no (as a bystander - I have nowhere near Mardoc's MP experience).
If You go this way - would Singaboy be allowed to test his pillaging? ('Hi, here's the save - but if Your district is still producing, please tell me and I'll move differently?')


Btw, problem wouldn't exist if a proper editor existed, allowing to prepare appropriate simulation with relative ease  .

[oledavy]

Well, I was going to post the save in the thread so a lurker could test it, then I downloaded and played the t62 save this morning before creating a copy of the t61 save   That's what I get for playing first thing in the morning. I guess we're not going to find out anytime soon. I imagine it does boot any enemy unit to an adjacent tile, but that wasn't a risk I was willing to take in the current game, with so much on the line and no great advantage to chopping out the encampment on t61. 

I got this from Singaboy: 

I have never had a district pillaged neither had I pillaged one. The only way I know from that is if I take over a city that has pillaged tiles. Maybe in one of my much earlier games I had pillaged districts and found how painful it is to repair them.
Maybe it is not a bug after all, but then all assumptions people made were wrong. Just leave it for now to your lurkers. We shall see what is happening.
Yes, we do enjoy the game. Had I know about this mechanic, I surely would have played this particular episode differently...well well.

And sent this in return: 

Yeah, I was quite surprised it worked that way too....it just seems to counter intuitive. I'm sorry to hear that, I certainly expected to lose the science per turn  If it helps to know, I'm still missing the GPP and have to invest significant hammers to repair the district, so it wasn't a total waste as far as slowing me down. 

The consensus in my thread is that it is probably intentional, and I'm content to leave it at that for now (of course, I'm a little biased). If you want to refer it to a third party to arbitrate, I am more than happy to do that. I'm hoping someone will come forward in my thread having tested it in a game or relating personal experience to that effect just to confirm. 

Anyway, great game so far, best of luck going forward!

Dave

I think that will be the end of it for now. The fact that I'm getting science currently is really weird to me, but at least we'll now know for future games if it indeed is a feature.

At the very least, this game has been good for discovering obscure game mechanics.