OSG 29B - The Socially-Awkward Diplomats

[RefSteel]

And one other thing - researching FF like this is very costly! Do we really need it asap?

I assumed this was one of the goofy things shallow_thought left in the save without intending the turn to be finished that way.  I am very much in agreement that we don't need Planetary Vs right away.  I also agree that there is presently no imminent threat.  Bear in mind, I'm talking about plans for my turn set though, and if we still have no beam or real missile, no prospect of getting one soon, and bases on only two worlds, with planetary shields not yet built, in another ten turns' time, we could indeed run into some trouble, especially if the AIs decide to make my set as interesting as the end of my last one!

So far I've only had time to re-familiarize myself with the empire and set up the first turn (the rest of the turns should go faster now that I know what I'm dealing with) but I'm obviously dialing FF spending wayyyyyyyyyy back, especially because I'm dialing overall tech spending way up, with help from the reserves.  My reach goals for the set are basically:

1) Max out every planet in the empire, preferably with a shield and at least one base on each world.
2) Acquire at least four new techs and set up the next emperor to pick up at least four more.
3) Capture Cygni and ensure we're in a position to hold it.

(Note I haven't done the math to see if these are all simultaneously achievable; we'll see!)

[RefSteel]

Good plan. We are working on Neutron blaster right? I classify that as an offensive tech not a defensive one

When your only weapons are lasers, Hyper-Vs, and bombs, any actual weapon is a defensive tech! Neutron blaster is of course also good for that other kind of defense though: The best defense!

For shields, first line planets definitely, but I've rarely seen AIs attack second line and usually when the first line has a lot of missiles. So I'd say it's fine to put those BCs in research to get us faster to the techs that will allow us to start attacking.

It's been way too long since the two of us played together on an SG team: Normally in a situation like this when I post something like, "preferably with a shield and at least one base on each world," I expect people to take issue with the idea that it's merely "preferable" or with the idea that I'm really only aiming to give the planets one base apiece. It's fun instead to have the "each" challenged for a change! We'll see what happens as I play the turns, but the truth is ... we don't have a whole lot of worlds that aren't in the first line right now, depending on how you define that and who we end up fighting.

[RefSteel]

Update:  I've played about half the turns, but work late tonight (like I said, the save got to me at a rough time for my schedule) so it'll be a while before I finish.  I already know I'm not going to achieve all my reach goals:  The Meklar have picked up some tech that makes an assault on Cygni unadvisable with our current technology. Obviously I'm working on improving our current tech....

I also realized I never responded to a question about AtmoTerra upthread: The Silicoids won't and can't ever use this tech on their planets (nor Soil nor Adv Soil). I believe under kyrub's patch, they don't even recognize that the tech exists: As we discovered back in OSG 27, they won't (and can't) trade for it, steal it via espionage, or even loot it from a planet, even when there's no other tech to steal.

[shallow_thought]

Update:  I've played about half the turns, but work late tonight (like I said, the save got to me at a rough time for my schedule) so it'll be a while before I finish.  I already know I'm not going to achieve all my reach goals:  The Meklar have picked up some tech that makes an assault on Cygni unadvisable with our current technology.  Obviously I'm working on improving our current tech....

I also realized I never responded to a question about AtmoTerra upthread:  The Silicoids won't and can't ever use this tech on their planets (nor Soil nor Adv Soil).  I believe under kyrub's patch, they don't even recognize that the tech exists:  As we discovered back in OSG 27, they won't (and can't) trade for it, steal it via espionage, or even loot it from a planet, even when there's no other tech to steal.

Oh well, facts are always useful, even if inconvenient. Now get on, and make some new facts! When you have time - no rush.

What have the borg picked up that is so awkward?

As an aside, I started a new practice game (Imp Klackons) and the initial major threat was aggressive Silicoids. The stuff I've been taught in the last two OSGs has made handlng this ... easy. In particular, I didn't make the mistake of holding back and letting the rocks take empty planets thsi time, but trusted the ships I could get into position. Yeah, Klackons, I know, but making progress! Thanks guys.

[RefSteel]

What have the borg picked up that is so awkward?

ECM4. It reduces the effective damage output of a BC1/battlescanner large bomber by 60%, and anything smaller is even worse. I'm still thinking about sending a bunch of transports and just hoping they'll run the gauntlet, but that would be a huge gamble (they could well be sending a war fleet to this, their closest planet to our worlds, especially as they've declared on us again).

As an aside, I started a new practice game (Imp Klackons) and the initial major threat was aggressive Silicoids. The stuff I've been taught in the last two OSGs has made handlng this ... easy. In particular, I didn't make the mistake of holding back and letting the rocks take empty planets thsi time, but trusted the ships I could get into position. Yeah, Klackons, I know, but making progress! Thanks guys.

And glad we've been able to help!

[RFS-81]

What have the borg picked up that is so awkward?

ECM4.  It reduces the effective damage output of a BC1/battlescanner large bomber by 60%, and anything smaller is even worse.  I'm still thinking about sending a bunch of transports and just hoping they'll run the gauntlet, but that would be a huge gamble (they could well be sending a war fleet to this, their closest planet to our worlds, especially as they've declared on us again).

Wait, ECM affects bombs too? I didn't know!

[RefSteel]

Sending transports at warp 1 against bases would destroy many of them.

We have sublights, not just nukes. Still, the risk that they'll build more bases or a fleet will show up would be too great.

What's the problem with a large bomber disposing of the bases - how many do they have? You'll have a 20% chance to hit against level 5 shields, which means a 1.5 damage per Fusion bomb on the ship. 7 bombs on the ship = 5 turns per base

They have BC4 and Mercs. We would need multiple larges per base. So far they have one, but by the time we can get enough bombers up there to deal with it (now that they have ECM) they could have more. Large bombers with lame tech are a money pit in this case - or could be if I let them be and we're unlucky with the Meks' decisions.

If they are building bases let's get rid of them now - it will cost a lot more later when there are more of them.

I disagree: I think it'll cost less if we do it with ships that are actually suited to clearing merc bases.

But how did this happen, wasn't our large nearby already to destroy the first base as it appeared?

It happened by the simple expedient of the 'Meks researching ECM4. We actually (thankfully) didn't have a ship waiting around, but could build one in one turn at Rha. It doesn't matter because their bases beat our large ships at 1:1. We would have had to invade before they built a single base, or commit multiple ships (or a huge) to the effort before they built their first base. We could also build a cloud of soon-obsolete bombers now though (or an about-to-be-obsolete huge) but I prefer to wait and tech.

[RefSteel]

Wait, ECM affects bombs too? I didn't know!

Yup! Also bioweapons. This is the main value of ECM, as it rarely makes sense to put it on ships.

[RefSteel]

Caveat on my answers to Thrawn:  My numbers are assuming no asteroids or an unfavorable layout, because I don't know what asteroids we've seen there in the past, and because we would have to win battles there on one or more turns not of our choosing in order to successfully invade.  Note as well that the large Meklar ship in orbit, even if not joined by any other ships, contributes additional missiles to the battle and is too heavily shielded for us to remove it (with current technology) before tanking or dodging all its missiles.

Once we have BC3, Duralloy, and Neutron Blasters, we'll have better options.  This should hopefully happen before their base count gets very high, and when any one of these techs come in (or if our spies steal a relevant tech) I can reassess.

[RefSteel]

I hear that; I think it's totally clear we'll win if we wait, even/especially if we wait a long time; I don't think we're going to lose with this economy. But I reeeeeeally want Cygni is the problem. I'm thinking of going in a different direction, but does anyone remember if there were (m)any asteroids when our ships visited previously?

[EDIT: To clarify, I'm not really concerned about the costs of ships either. When I said large ships could be a money pit, I meant that by the time we get enough into position to take out the bases safely, there could be more bases, requiring more large ships, requiring more time in which they could build more bases. "Wasting" the cost of a single large ship on a speculative venture really isn't that bad, as Thrawn pointed out upthread, with our current economy.]