[no players] CiVI Lurking Part II: Sophomore Slump

[srgtb]

There are lots of fun bugs and design oversights. Last night I was testing if there is a way out of a friendship or alliance (didn't find any).

The game does not let you declare war against a friend or your ally's friend. But you can still ask for joint war against non-friends.

Players 1 & 2 are allies with a defensive pact.
Players 3 & 4 are allies with a defensive pact.
Players 1 & 3 declare friendship.
Player 1 asks player 2 for a joint war against player 4.

Result: Player 2 accepts and automatically declares war on players 3 and 4. Player 1 stayed at peace with both and could not help player 2.

I was hoping the defensive pact would supersede the friendship between players 1 & 3.

[Cornflakes]

Great Generals stacking is a very poor balance decision by the Devs. Likely an oversight, considering they nerfed all the stacking aura bonuses. It has a chance to never be addressed, though, because the percentage of Civ players that go to war is very low, and it'll never appear as clearly as factory stacking.

You are probably correct that it was an oversight, however it may not be all that unbalancing. Other players do have the ability to prevent it by pursuing the 2nd GG. Theoretically the player who claims the first GG is starting at a disadvantage going for the 2nd, having expended their first 60 GG points already. And in this particular game the double GG merely compensates TheArchduke for being a generation behind in military tech (as a result of pursuing double GG?? or just a coincidence?). The generals are only effective on a single front, whereas more advanced military tech reaches empire-wide including boosting city strength. I'm curious to see what impact generals have in future games.

I think the bigger poor decision is to make great people invincible. If not desiring the player to loose it outright, they could perhaps end the aura bonuses after capture thereby forcing the general to retire.

[pindicator]

I think the bigger poor decision is to make great people invincible. If not desiring the player to loose it outright, they could perhaps end the aura bonuses after capture thereby forcing the general to retire.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out with more MP. But at face value it seems s questionable design choice

[MJW (ya that one)]

If I read the posts correctly it looks like Alhambram will DoW Woden because Woden will get the wonder being raced to.

[srgtb]

Alhambram has 3 turns left on it while it looks like Woden hasn't started it. The tile he had pinned 4 turns ago for it isn't owned by his city yet and I don't see it started on any other tiles.

Woden needs his builders to get it out. If he can get his workers there soon without losing them to the knights then he has a chance​.

[MJW (ya that one)]

Alhambram has 3 turns left on it while it looks like Woden hasn't started it. The tile he had pinned 4 turns ago for it isn't owned by his city yet and I don't see it started on any other tiles.

Woden needs his builders to get it out. If he can get his workers there soon without losing them to the knights then he has a chance.

Woden's last post was at turn 116 and his "eight turns" comment makes me feel that Alhambram's deadline is ether 124 or 125. His last post was 120 and he said he would finish in three turns--turn 123. So I did mess up. Losing that wonder is actually good for Woden because it will lock Alhambram into another 30 turns of peace.

[ebbitten]

I think oledavey and alhambram are pretty massively underestimating Woden's mid-long term potential because they're fixated on the culture and science growth rates. While these rates are very important (and one of the few things even kind of accessible in the Civ 6 UI) they don't compound in the mid game as quickly as production does.

Production allows you to build more settlers which leads to more production, more builders which leads to more production, industrial and commercial hubs blah blah blah and eventually whatever you end up using to actually win the game. Both alhambram and oledavey have invested in ways to keep up with Woden in culture and science in the short run but my guess is that Woden's sheer number of cities (and the compound production that entails) is going to snowball out of control in another ~20 turns if there aren't any major external factors (e.g losing 10-20 population's worth of cities/losing full turns of production to units that die)


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[ebbitten]

And on a more actionable note I think Alhambram's last "real" chance at winning may be to declare war and pray that oledavey/TA pile on enough damage to stunt Woden's growth now or never.


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[Esteon]

I love how the game (at least for the next +-20 turns) now hinges on one wonder. If I understand correctly there are two possibilities:
A) Alhambram lands Mahabodhi -> he DoFs Woden and attacks TheArchDuke. This Singaboy free to build a little or join the war against TAD. And I don't know what OleDavy will do (attack/pillage Woden, build economy?)
B) Woden lands it (or is close) -> Alhambram attacks Woden, so does OleDavy. And TheArchDuke attacks Singaboy.

[Sullla]

I wanted to type a few quick thoughts in response to oledavy's post:

Finally, my culture and science are now both on par with Woden. Here's the break down.

Me: 51.9 (SPT), 24 (Techs), 39.1 (CPT), 18(Civics)
Woden: 52.9 (SPT), 24 (Techs), 36.4 (CPT), 18 (Civics)
Alhambram: 48.7 (SPT), 22 (Techs), 48.9 (CPT), 18 Civics)
Archduke: 34.1 (SPT), 19 (Techs), 20.1 (CPT), 14 (Civics)
Singaboy: 27.5 (SPT), 18 (Techs), 20 (CPT), 14 (Civics)

Woden, Alhambram and I are all neck and neck, with Alhambram behind in tech but ahead on cultural production due to his Great Writers. His culture production will be something to watch in the coming turns, but at least his high numbers are making it extremely unlikely for Woden to win a cultural victory.

Singaboy and Archduke are starting to get left in the dust. Eventually, I will have a full generation of military tech over both of them at this rate.

The value of the Campus districts in these games is something we've heard a lot of discussion about. From what I can see, they're pretty useless in the early game, and then over time start to become extremely valuable. Think about it. When a game starts, you're looking at investing the cost of a full district for something like +1 or +2 beakers/turn depending on adjacency bonuses. That's an awful return on investment - you'd be much better off getting a settler or builder and growing another population point. But this game has entered the midgame now, and suddenly those Campus districts start to become awfully valuable. Oledavy has the full 6 envoys invested in Hattusa, and that means +4 beakers in all of his Campus districts. Now they start out being worth 5 beakers on average, and that's no laughing matter. Furthermore, the tech leaders in this game aren't very far away from Rationalism policy at Enlightenment civic, which doubles the value of all Campus district buildings. Libraries double from 2 beakers to 4 beakers, universities from 4 beakers to 8 beakers. With a library/university combo, Rationalism policy, and the Hattusa suzerainship, oledavy can potentially get 17 beakers/turn out of a single Campus district. It's a serious investment, but it makes for serious returns.

The Theatre districts work in a similar manner, although the combination of monuments and Meritocracy policy can generally allow players to skip building too many of them. Russia's Lavras are surprisingly strong in this regard, since they essentially lock down a bunch of free early Great Writers that can be dumped into Amphitheatres later. And oledavy found something that I didn't know about either, with the Greek Acropolis district combined with the Theatre adjacency policy card producing +4 culture per (half cost) Greek Theatre district. That's a very nice combination there.

The point I'm trying to make is that there's a real tradeoff here between building districts that have pure military/production value, and the ones that have science/culture value. Commercial districts are the one slightly overpowered district that does both due to the trade routes they provide. A lot of us were looking at the PBEM1 game and thinking that there was simply no point to building the Campus/Theatre stuff. But we simply didn't reach far enough on the tech/culture tree to hit the point where they start mattering. In this game, Singaboy and TheArchduke haven't built any of the economic districts, only pure military stuff, and it's only going to become more and more apparent with time as they start to fall behind.

This makes oledavy's last attack against TheArchduke all the more puzzling, charging into a double Great General medieval army when he was starting to pull away in terms of research. If oledavy had simply stood his ground and continued teching/developing, he would be in such a better position right now. I know his logic was "I must attack TheArchduke now before he attacks me in 10 turns", but what was the evidence for that again? I'm not seeing it. Why not continue teching to muskets/cavalry/field guns, take the Renaissance Great General, and then crush TheArchduke with units that are a generation ahead, and when the old Classical Great General no longer has any value? Wouldn't that have been the better move?

Regardless, what a fun game to watch, especially with great reporting on all sides.