Dave's Not Throwing Away His Shot

[oledavy]

Could you post an overview shot in strategic view? I'm curious how you laid out the districts in your core but I have a terrible time deciphering the graphics in the normal view.

I'll show you on the next turn. I'm actually pretty proud of some of my district layouts this game, so thank you for giving me an opportunity to show it off 

[oledavy]

Any questions?

How much easier would it have been to found your own religion a while back instead of at crash-program pace?  Would you have had to give up something else vital - would it have made your military stagnate enough that you couldn't kill Archduke profitably, for example?  I guess I'm looking for the general lesson: should people usually try to get a religion, or is this a special case?

Speaking of religion, what beliefs will you be taking, and what effects will they have?  Can you get anything useful from the religion aside from 'not immediately losing the game'?

Can you put a timeline on any of this?  Any idea when your various milestones will have to be reached?  Or is it simply ASAP, you win or you die?

The upfront costs would have been less had I opted to pursue a religion back then, but the relative costs would have been higher compared to what I'm having to do now. Right now, the biggest things I've giving up are military to fight Singaboy, Oxford, and getting a Archaelogical Museum out of New York for an inspiration. However, compared to the last time I looked at this, my economy is significantly stronger. I needed to kill Archduke to win, I don't need Singaboy's land to win though. Killing him is basically 'win harder' (or was, now Alhambram is going to have all of China...). That being said with his science rate, he will be vulnerable to an attack from me for the rest of the game. 

Not being able to build Oxford or get another Inspiration sucks, but my science rate is already nearly double Alhambram's (at least for now). It's less punishing to give up science boosters when you are in the lead versus when you are trailing. 

So I actually think it was to my benefit to wait to now. Unlike last time, I have a bunch of builders on hand to effect my switching gears quickly, and having Archduke's land means that instead of giving up the game winning attack on Archduke, I'm simply  not accelerating ahead of my rivals as fast as I was. Still, I would rather just not have to found a religion at all, but Woden can't be counted on to keep Weedy Movement at bay any more. 

The biggest cost is going to be selling cities to Singaboy (should he accept of course). However, I don't think losing these two cities will seriously put me out long-term, and it will get me exactly what I need for now. 

As for whether or not people should pursue a religious generally, I really don't know. I will say having to count on someone else to prevent a religious win has been nerve-wracking, if nothing else. Religions are just really costly to found if you don't have a UA that helps you, and take forever to pay back. I think if I had pursued religion in the early game, I would have just been crushed by my neighbors, it was already a struggle to survive. The additional factor here is Woden's fall. I don't think anyone lurking this game would have predicted 30 turns ago Woden would fold like this. I made a calculation at the time, that I could pursue a religion, but it would be costly and would likely be a moot point since Woden had his own religion, wouldn't let Alhambram win via religion, and wouldn't be conquered due to his superior tech rate. One of those proved to be an incorrect assumption....

I'm still dumbfounded by what's going on over there, and angry at how easy it should have been to prevent. 

I listed my beliefs above. It won't give back rewards commensurate with my investment, but I will still get something. The two biggest benefits are amenities thanks to Zen Meditation, and hurting Alhambram's economy by reducing his income. I might reconsider Religious Community, but my sense is that the amenities will be more useful for my situation. The biggest benefit is not losing if Woden dies though. Now, a post-Woden world will be interesting to say the least, but that's at least 15 turns off, probably more. Hopefully I can keep him alive as an enclave to deny Alhambram productivity. Once he gets all those cities online, he will be difficult to stop. 

Anyway, if you're asking if I regret not going for a religion, I would say no. I don't think there was a point prior to now where I could without giving up my chance to win. Knowing that I would need my own religion to prevent myself from losing would have meant knowing things in the west would shake out the way they have. As for future games though, I can't say for sure if religion is generally worthwhile to go for. In the case that you are not a civ that gets easy access to one, I would say only go for it if there is only one 'religious' civ in the game. 

Timeline. 

I'm going to try here, with the caveat this is very tentative. I am guessing, for example, on if I will have enough faith to buy an apostle when the time comes. I don't know how much they cost at this point. Although, if I get proselytizer on the apostle, this gets a lot easier....  

Anyway. 

t168 - Upcoming Turn
t170 - Deal Brokered with Singaboy (Hopefully)
t172 - Attack on Helicegrad Begins
t176 - Helicegrad Falls
t186 - I found my religion
t190 - I clear Weedy Movement out of my cities
t198 - Alliance with Singaboy runs out

[oledavy]

Does anyone know the upgrade cost for a musket corps to an infantry corps?

[Mardoc]

Does anyone know the upgrade cost for a musket corps to an infantry corps?

Googling suggests that it's the same as the cost of 2 muskets -> infantry upgrades. Not sure if the source I found is trustworthy, though.

[suboptimal]

Does anyone know the upgrade cost for a musket corps to an infantry corps?

Googling suggests that it's the same as the cost of 2 muskets -> infantry upgrades.  Not sure if the source I found is trustworthy, though.

It's probably based upon the relative production differences using the usual cog -> gold upgrade formula.  What those exact production costs are, though, aren't really quoted anywhere (as mentioned many turns ago).  A post on Apolyton from October indicates that corps are 1.5x production cost of a single unit and armies are 2x cost; however, no idea if that info is accurate, either.

[Tatan]

I can confirm from a single player game that upgrade costs scale linearly.  If musket -> infantry is 100, musket corps -> infantry corps is 200.


EDIT: Also, I got nervous that the mechanics for religion might be different than I remembered, so I set up a quick test to make sure.  When you found a religion, any city you own with a holy shrine will convert to that religion, regardless of whether you have a shrine there or not.  Any other religion present in that city will be eliminated.

[oledavy]

Thank all of you for your swift and informative answers, I really appreciate it 

I'm glad we're actually getting a chance to figure a lot of these things out. 

So, research online and Tatan's comment has indicated a remarkable thing. A city just needs a Holy Site when a religion is founded to converts to that religion immedietly. If anyone else can additionally confirm this to be true, I would appreciate it. 

This means that faith generation is not a major concern, at least not in the short term. Long term I will of course need to worry about it. I simply need to put the holy sites I'm building on cities with Weedy Movement. Surprise, just by adding a holy site to my capital, it gets me below the halfway threshold - even in the trade away Monticello and Madison scenario. 

This means the limiting factor is no longer faith to get an apostle or how fast I can get a prophet, but how long it takes me to complete holy sites in New York and Angelica. Instead of worrying about a shrine and temple in Lafayette, I can sink all of my chops into 2 district projects. 

With this in mind, I no longer have any severe need for gold, especially since I'm generating a lot of my own. I'm going to go back to simply offering Singaboy an alliance, then sweeten the pot with gold and cities if he needs persuading. While having a from at Helicegrad would be better, upgrading 4 infantry corps would take 1160 gold if I'm calculating things right, and is not risk free. I can simply upgrade 1 infantry to increase the strength of my cities, then continue to sit back and wait for Alhambram to come at me. This in turn frees up gold that can be used to buy forested tiles around Angelica and New York, solving that production problem. 

So, we're still going to try to work a deal out with Singaboy, and I'm still going to try and defend Woden, but some of the urgency is gone. If all goes well, I should have 7 holy sites, a prophet, and a religion in ~15-20 turns. I will be monitoring Woden's cities closely during this time in case Alhambram goes the conversion route, but conquest seems more likely, and I don't think he can finish him off in that time. I will still have to worry about faith generation long term, and work to remove Weedy Movement from some of my remaining cities to get the threshold down, but I'm actually feeling extremely confident at present in my ability to forestall a Russian Religious victory. 

Now I just need to figure out a foolproof way to keep Woden alive so that Russia's cities don't come out of occupation. That, and a sustainable solution to my German neighbor.

[oledavy]

EDIT: Also, I got nervous that the mechanics for religion might be different than I remembered, so I set up a quick test to make sure.  When you found a religion, any city you own with a holy shrine will convert to that religion, regardless of whether you have a shrine there or not.  Any other religion present in that city will be eliminated.

Thank you so much for testing this. This is amazing and gives me almost guranteed odds of being able to get out from under Weedy Movement. I appreciate it Tatan

[oledavy]

Full turn report coming later, but I have played turns 168 and 169 since this morning. 

Woden lost Pirates to Alhambram in the interim. I have completed my first Holy Site in Lafayette and bought a Shrine into it. I have now started on a district project, due in 8 turns. I think I will slot in one more district project somewhere, and that will get me my GP. 

The trick is going to be getting Elizabeth and Angelica's Holy Sites finished in time. It's probably going to be a combination of chops and trade routes. With 7 total being completed in the next 20 turns, my religion will be in excellent shape to grow, and Weedy Movement will be reduced to 6/17 of my cities from the 10/17 it currently occupies. 

Finally, I offered Singaboy a deal, an alliance and Madison for 400 gold. He refused, and didn't come at me with a counter-offer. I was a little disappointed on this last score, as I was hoping it would be the opening salvo in a round of negotiations between the two of us. This may indicate he's simply not interested. I wouldn't really blame him either. I'm making three times his science at present. He's the strongest he's ever going to be relative to me. 

I think I'm going to keep my hand close to my chest for now, and prepare myself for a possible war with Singaboy. I'm currently re-allocating my forces: 

2 Field Cannons, 4 Muskets (soon to be 2 Infantry Corps) to Theodosia
1 Field Cannon to Madison
1 Field Cannon to Mt. Vernon
3 Field Cannons, 4 Muskets (soon to be 4 Infantry), 1 Knight to Hattusa, with my great general and battering ram in tow. 

Alhambram could come after me, but he has to be running out of steam soon, and attacking a city with civil engineering defended by infantry corps would be a truly tough test, even for cossacks. While I'm sure he would overwhelm me if he crammed his entire military in there, I think he'll defer on that. We shall see. It won't be very good for me if my guess here is wrong. Still, amenities has to be a huge issue for him about now, and I would be more than willing to bet he's ready to get out of his current conflicts. Woden has no motivation to make peace, as it will simply help Alhambram, the player who put him out of the game. 

I can sign peace with Alhambram starting in 4 turns. I won't make the first offer, and will see if he comes at me with something. If he does, I might be able to work out a peace treaty with him that frees my hand relative to Singaboy, and allows me to work out a much better deal. I'm not sure where my next military venture will be at present, so I'm keeping my options open. The foremost concern right now, however, is survival. While I still could try to eliminate Singaboy, the cogs for the army I might have done it with are now mostly tied up in Holy Sites. Still, I'll be done with them soon, and able to begin mobilizing about ~15 turns later than I would have otherwise. 

We shall see what happens.

[oledavy]

Turn 168-169

Notes to self: 

Woden and Alhambram can make peace on t171
Alhambram and I can make peace on t172
Woden and Singaboy are at war, but it's a meaningless conflict

Mostly just adding some pictures to the above commentary. 

Lafayette's Holy Site: 



Shrines are ridiculously cheap for me to purchase, and are great in terms of their cost efficiently. I'm still going to have to stretch to do all the upgrades, and tile purchases I want, but where I can, I'm buying in Shrines right off the bat to accelerate myself towards my GP. 

So, full accounting of the stuff I had to give up to make this religion plan work. At least all the major stuff I can think of. 

1. Slotting in 7 Holy Site districts, and the cogs, opportunity cost, and district slots their investment represents. (including most of the cogs slotted to build infantry and field cannons to fight Singaboy)
- As an aside, the only way I generated this many open district spots was by harvesting several marshes/wheats to hit 7 pop for cities to place a new district. I've generally been very good this game about locking in district costs immedietly. The other reason I had a few open was cities waiting on tiles to be harvested and leaving slots open for aerodomes down the road. 

2. Oxford
 - I may be able to start it back up, bit I just rerouted over 350 hammers in chops and harvests that would have accelerated progress on it to 2-turning a Holy Site. 

3. The Navigation Eureka (or whichever tech requires 2 harbors)
 - Only 270 science if I recall correctly, I may yet find a way to squeeze this one out, but I need to find something quick as every turn I sandbag this tech is a delay to me grabbing industrialization and +1 on mines. 

4. The Natural History Eureka (Building a Archaelogical Museum). 
 - I may yet find a way to squeeze this in too, but I really don't want to delay Natural History too long, as Zoos cost 405 hammers, and the sooner Buenoes Aires and Hong Kong get theirs done, the sooner I get +11 amenities empire wide. 

All things considered, I'm pretty happy with how I'm managing this sea change. And I'm honestly looking forward to not having to worry about losing via religion anymore. Provided this works, (about ~19 turns to go) I'll need to switch gears to figuring out how to survive Alhambram if he gets access to the unoccupied output of Woden's former core, and a likely 2v1 from him and Singaboy. My religion should help quite a bit with amenities if nothing else, since many of my cities have 2 districts at this point. I still need to get set for taking New Deal, but that's a bit farther down the road. 

Neighborhoods are soon too.... There's just so much to balance in this game. 

Anyway, Cornflakes asked for the strategic view of my civ. I don't know how well you can make out my districts, but here it is!



Woden has infantry now, but Alhambram has shown no signs of stopping yet. 



Those northeastern cities will be easy picking for him. He also now gets access to all the city-sites Woden didn't settle. If I kill Singaboy, however, I should once again surpass Alhambram in total economic output, even after he finishes conquering Woden. In the meantime, I need to hope my tech gives me the edge I need to handle Alhambram. With corps and infantry coming online, cossacks are not going to be as unstoppable as they once were. He can still just try to swamp me with sheer numbers though. His military power is ridiculous at present. 

The major annoyance from this last turn: 



I really needed that forest hill tile to chop into Angelica. I was going to buy it this turn. Then Woden grabbed it between turns 

In the south, Singaboy settled a new city and is going to settle another: 





Maybe I can have meaningful diplomacy with him. Anything to avoid fighting on both fronts at once. We'll see what shakes down with Alhambram in a couple turns and then come back to this. 

I'm going to need a lot of military in the coming turns though. I think I beeline flight to start getting planes in play with aerodomes, but most importantly for observation balloons. I have 4 bombards under construction right now to benefit from observation balloon. I'm pretty sure field cannons do to, but am less sure. The wording on the ability ("bombard strength units") is confusing. I can only assume it means units as strong as a bombard and stronger? Or maybe just siege.   If anyone knows the answer to this, I would appreciate it 

Anyway, after that, I think I will beeline artillery and tanks on the bottom of the tree for the full suite of modern warfare toys. 

I'm actually really frustrated I haven't been able to have more meaningful diplomacy with people this game. More than anything, I wanted a trading partner who I could work together with long-term. 

I was hoping to partner with Archduke, but he signalled his intentions early on by pillaging my trader. Our relationship was always antagonistic.

Singaboy attacked my suzerain while I was fighting for my life against Greece, and while we've had generally warm relations since our initial scuffles, our relationship now has taken a turn for the worse due to the metagame situation.

I tried really hard to work with Alhambram to dogpile Woden, but he refused to attack, and took advantage of our DoF to convert all my cities. Now I have no motivation to work with him since he's my only rival to win. 

Woden tried to be cutesy and play both sides of the fence during the aftermath of the Third Pelepponesian War, refusing to sign a DoF with me and denouncing me. Alhambram then promptly declared and wrecked him, and now he's only really useful as someone I can keep alive to forestall Alhambram winning and keep those cities occupied. If he makes peace, then he'll be even less useful to me. 

I obviously realize it's a FFA game and everyone's playing to win, but it would been nice to have more than a temporary partner at some point in this game and not been so alone. This whole PBEM has felt like an uphill slog for me. If I'm not panicking over Archduke about to take my Lafayette, I'm counting how many tiles Alhambram's apostles have to move and am trying to forestall a religious win. This game has honestly stressed me out far more than any other game of civ I have played on Realms Beyond. I'm hoping I have a much more chill game awaiting me in PBEM4.

At any rate, it's lonely near the top of the scoreboard, and other than the rapidly collapsing Woden, it looks like it's just me against Singaboy and Alhambram for the rest of the game. We'll see what we can do