I do like the marble site, and we don't want our boat supply lines to be too long, but I have a sense that most people don't have a galley on the board yet, and it could be well worth staking our claim to the wheat island now. We also won't need marble itself for a while. So, what are our options here?
It took me a while to figure out where our galley was because it hadn't even occurred to me that you might move into Muqa! Is the presently-healing chariot positioned so it can just make it to Muqa next turn, but no further? Either way, let's see:
Marble site:
T76 the Settler and the Worker from the plains cottage both board the Galley, which can then move SE-S, to just north of the middle of Marble Island, while the workboat moves 2S to the crabs to get a last bit of scouting in. Then T77 the Worker can disembark onto the forest hill (already in our borders thanks to Muqa, and in Marble-Kokejin's second ring) before the Galley goes E-SE to get adjacent to the Marble and let the Settler disembark onto the Marble while the workboat moves NW-W to the coast just south of the Marble. Kokejin would be founded T78, with netted clams to work and a Worker already ready to start the mine-chopping).
Wheat-adjacent site:
T76 the Settler (alone) boards the Galley, which moves 2E to the tile just north of the fish. The Worker on the plains Cottage can finish the road there (I assume it started a road this turn since it's still on the same tile) while the Workboat moves 2E to the tile south of the Wheat to get a last bit of scouting in (it will only reveal tiles we'd see anyway once we plant the city, but might suggest a better city location on the same island, depending on what it sees). Then T77, a Worker (either the one from the plains cottage or the one newly produced in Muqa, depending on what you want to do with the other) boards the Galley, which (assuming no better location was revealed) can then move 2SE to the crabs, whence the Settler disembarks onto the site of Kokejin while the Workboat moves W-NW to the coast just south of the Crab. Kokejin would then be founded T78, with netted crabs, allowing the Galley to move into the city and the Worker to then unload in place, move to the Wheat, and begin a farm immediately.
Which one we want to try depends on whether we think any other players have a galley out on this part of the sea. If we're ~first to get a boat in the area, the Wheat site is better to take advantage of this. If we think someone else could be prowling already, we'll want the marble site instead, as we should be able to get a military unit out to the city (slightly) sooner, and it's further from any possible rivals.
Another note: GermanJoey has now had a Barracks in State of Zijin since turn 73. Unless he lucks into a religion spread there before we can get faith into Oghul Qaimish, we'll probably still be able to reclaim the tiles in both cities' second rings, but it's going to be a challenge.
Good call putting EP on Dark Savant! I'm not too afraid of dtay right now, but I'm glad he's doing something to get back in the game (even though that's arguably bad for us in the long term).
The galley did indeed move into Muqa this turn. The reason for moving it into the city was to build the marble city a turn sooner by unloading the settler on the island already next turn. I`m really unsure if other galleys are on this sea right now. Possibly? If we`re going for the more ambitious wheat island city we could bring a unit along. I moved the chariot so that it has the option of joining the galley next turn. It can scout out the island quickly. I`m willing to go for it. We could let a worker hop on board instead of the chariot if you feel that improving the wheat asap is more important than getting a military unit to the island.
As the chariot was moved away from Joey we`re a little bit light on military down there if he does go for that aggressive plant on exactly next turn. I don`t think he will, however. As we`ve been keeping a turn split for quite a while he probably thought we were about to attack his front city as he built another archer. He`s welcome to spend those hammers on more defensive units..
The worker started on a road. Not sure what else to build right now as we`re waiting for Mathematics to finish. We`re likely finishing it at turn 79 as we`re close to 4 turning it right now. Oops, the work boat could have gone N instead of NW so it can`t scout more tiles before the new city is built unfortunately. It shouldn`t hurt us too much, as the city (and the chariot) will reveal a lot of tiles.
(July 15th, 2017, 16:17)JR4 Wrote: The galley did indeed move into Muqa this turn. The reason for moving it into the city was to build the marble city a turn sooner by unloading the settler on the island already next turn.
Ah - that explains it. Unfortunately, this doesn't work. Units always use up all their moves when boarding a ship, even when they begin the turn on the same tile. It doesn't cost them any moves to disembark from a ship in a city or fort, but when boarding it doesn't matter where they are.
Quote:We could let a worker hop on board instead of the chariot if you feel that improving the wheat asap is more important than getting a military unit to the island.
Not sure if it's more important, honestly. Getting the wheat improved ASAP means the city grows to size 2 - and then to size 3, plus get the following chop(s) and tile improvement(s) - a turn sooner ... as long as nobody else attacks the worker or city. I'd risk it - I don't think we'll see anybody with military on a galley trying to harrass us out there yet - but I certainly could be wrong.
Quote:The worker started on a road. Not sure what else to build right now as we`re waiting for Mathematics to finish.
A road there is fine, and will help with tactical options against dtay (or barbs if one of dtay's new cities wasn't that barb city in the northeast). In terms of what else to build right now, there are plenty of needs and options, but what takes priority depends on our longer-term strategy. I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on what we want to accomplish in the next 20-25 turns.
Quote:Oops, the work boat could have gone N instead of NW so it can`t scout more tiles before the new city is built unfortunately.
No worries: The workboat scouting I was talking about assumed it had gone NW after you took the screenshot. As described above, it can reveal a little more next turn, still move adjacent to the seafood on the turn the Settler disembarks, and net the seafood on the turn we found Kokejin. (I'd have moved the workboat NE from its screenshot location rather than N or NW, but what you did makes sense in light of thinking the Settler wouldn't lose its movement points when it boarded the ship in the city.) Either way, you're correct that it shouldn't hurt us significantly.
(July 15th, 2017, 17:41)RefSteel Wrote: I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on what we want to accomplish in the next 20-25 turns.
Okay, as we`re not building a city on turn 77 regardless we might as well go for the more greedy wheat island. Strange thing that I haven`t noticed that boarding a ship costs all the unit`s movement points. Maybe it`s different from an earlier version? Let`s go for a settler/worker pair to make a firm claim to that island.
And now for the long term strategy. I think we should do the utmost to colonize the islands early. That`s what`s going to keep us high in the demos. Still, we can`t ignore the strongest spots on the mainland. The corn/pigs site is an obvious candidate to build next (after the 6th and 7th cities). Also, NW of Borte we can build a city with corn, clams and horse in its first ring. We should stake a claim to the stone island out W as well, not to mention the high quality islands near Borte. Maybe we could use a couple of chops to speed up the building of more settlers.
After Mathematics is finished we need to decide on the tech path going forward. Currency is an awesome tech. If we`re not under any immediate threat I`m still inclined to beeline it. After it`s finished we could back fill Iron Working and Archery+Horseback Riding for UU and UB plus the value of deterrence.
So, what are the potential downsides? We`re not really competing for any wonders with this plan. Also, we`re not prioritizing civics like Organized Religion to spread Buddhism around. Still, I don`t think it`s too bad. We`ll be well underway to Code of Laws for Caste System which will make border pops a lot easier.
A big turn for us. No Greek units were visible on the jungle copper so we`re getting the city site we want next turn! That`s definitely good news for us as we`d really be cornered if Joey had ruined our plans.
Joey moved his warrior to his existing city, which now has 4 Greek units inside it. I think we should be careful here as a worker pair on the copper could road toward us and he could hit us on the second turn. We might want to switch to an axe in Oghul Qaimish next turn instead of the galley for an emergency.
Toregene started a library. We might want to finish the axe first instead but I think getting libraries online is a good investment.
The settler in Muqa boarded the galley and is on its way to the wheat island. The worker is joining next turn from the plains cottage.
EDIT: Oh, one of the screenshots is from the turn before. I`ll fix it and post the demos tomorrow. It`s already too late and I need to get some sleep. Teaser: Dtay has built a lot of military and caught up with us in soldiers!
Great news that we're not in a settling race with GermanJoey after all! (Or that if we are, we won it.)
Good thoughts on the tactical danger from GJ's direction. Nevertheless, I wouldn't worry about it yet; here's why:
Why would GermanJoey want to attack us in this scenario? He's got a strong garrison in his one-city border and is facing no danger to the south except for barbs, allowing him to run light on military, which he's doing. He also knows we have forces (at least the spear) that can threaten both of his cities from the east if he sends too much of his force up toward Oghul Qaimish and knows we have force in the north as well. Why would he gamble on that when he can just expand into what used to be Ventessel's territory, or to the islands, without fighting his powerful northern neighbor?
State of Zijin is also a huge salient into our lands, meaning he will be in a good position to attack us whenever it's convenient, with our forces necessarily split or out of position because State of Zijin's position forces us into a long border while he has a short one. Not only that, his border city is ahead in culture - controlling all the tiles that are second-ring for both - and making more culture per turn than ours. Time is very much on his side here. He doesn't want to change that dynamic, least of all by risking most of his limited current military force against the hope that our forces are out of position to respond to an attack on Oghul Qaimish, that we can't whip a defender, and that he'll get good die rolls in combat. He wants to wait and then attack when doing so will result in major gains, not throw ancient units against a hill city with popped borders and a couple of fully-fortified metal defenders.
I wouldn't start a unit in Oghul Qaimish until it has at least a Barracks and preferably another cultural building as well (I'd build a library there after the Galley unless we get a lucky religious spread, and multi-pop whip it - if we do get a religious spread, I'd go for a Monastery) - and the city is going to want a lighthouse too. (So does Muqa, but neither one can really afford to build one right now, I think.) On the other hand, I wouldn't build a library in Muqa - not yet at least. With our first island city coming out nearby and dtay's power rising, I'd want another 3-xp completed axe on his side of the empire rather than another 0-xp potential one on GJ's side.
[EDIT: Regardless of where we think an attack might come from, the Chariot on the bananas no longer has a good reason to be there, right? I would move it back onto our road network, to be able to reinforce one front or the other or both.]
Graphs and demos from turn 76: Dtay is getting stronger by the turn it seems. He`s showing an increase just about everywhere. I think CML is looking like a more appetizing meal than us so I`m still not panicking.
I moved the chariot to the cows SW of Borte so that it can reach either border quickly. The other chariot is healing in place. It`ll be full strength next turn.
Joey certainly has a good border with us and currently we can`t do a lot about it. We probably have to win the cultural war over that coast tile that`d give us vision on his copper in order to get a turn of warning. A library build would certainly help. Whipping it out asap is the best way of ensuring an advantage in culture down there. Still, Oghul Qaimish isn`t producing a lot of beakers for us so it`s only a moderately helpful build. A barracks is a good build after the library is done. It`ll certainly produce a lot of units for us in the long run. I feel reassured that Joey is not coming after us in the short term as he should have a lot of land to back fill right now.
Maybe the new island city could produce its own axe? It`ll have a lot of food to regrow quickly and Muqa would rather build more axes to send to Chubei in order to make safe the front with dtay. I`d like to get in a library in Muqa if possible as it`s the second best research city right now. Building military is, however, of greater importance now.
Okay! Definitely looks like dtay's doing a good job at catching up. His Pro Granaries and Agg Ikhandas certainly help with that! He also may have taken that barb city, saving him a settler. (Paying him back for the one they took earlier.)
Great moves with the chariots. I also see you moved the workboat to the crabs already, which does mean it can move 1NE (and back if desired) next turn to defog a coast tile the city itself wouldn't reveal when founded.
Given our defensive needs, we might want to tech Archery after Math. An advantage of building more axes is that they'll be more useful in support of Keshiks if we go on the offensive early, but if that isn't the plan right now, archers are cheaper defenders and helpful for island cities because they don't have to worry about (say) a chariot coming off a boat. There are lots of techs we want though, and we might not want to delay the next one by the ~two turns Archery would likely take (including gold saving). Two turns might not sound like much - Archery is a pretty cheap tech - but the effective cost is roughly equivalent to delaying Muqa's library by 25 turns(!) - a statement both about the cost of an extra tech and the value of a library outside of a culture war. (I don't want to build a library in Oghul Qaimish yet either, but I think we probably have to since it's taken so long for Buddhism to spread to even one of our cities; the fact that we got Writing first is the only cultural advantage we can bring to bear in that area right now.)
Note Chubei will grow next turn, and though it could start working the plains cottage, another option would be to whip its spear (even though it would otherwise complete immediately anyway) for a huge amount of overflow (in fact, enough overflow that it would probably be better to let Muqa keep working the plains cow and let Chubei keep growing on the corn to keep some of the overflow from being wasted!) which could then be used the following turn to one-turn a Worker or get a great start on a Settler (trading the corn to Muqa for the plains cow in either case), or finish most of a Barracks, or one-turn another unit if needed.
About Kokejin: As a new island city, it's going to want a granary, probably a source of culture, and a lighthouse, all reasonably quickly. Muqa is giving up 2 food per turn by building military (or a library) instead of a lighthouse right now, but Kokejin will only have 3 usable tiles until it pops borders, completes a lighthouse, or I guess finishes a building with a specialist slot. It's not impossible to sneak a military unit in there, but doing so early on would negatively affect the city's development quite a bit.
[EDIT: As for the Workers near and in Muqa, you probably have a plan at this point, but in case you'd like some suggestions: If we have a plan for when and where we'll build our next city after Nambui and Kokejin, and it's expected to be soon, the Worker could start in that direction - e.g. the Worker on the cottage could board the galley and the Worker from Muqa could move 3SW to the forest, put a turn into a chop or cottage and cancel orders. Alternatively, for tactical purposes, the Worker on the cottage could move to the grass cows and start a road, giving forces from the Muqa direction more flexibility for dealing with a threat from the north while the Worker from Muqa boards the galley. But if we just want to speed everything up, particularly at Muqa, there are two forests in its BFC that either worker could reach, and whose chops would complete - if a Worker enters one T77 - at the same time as the chop/mine, and after Math is in.]
(July 17th, 2017, 15:50)RefSteel Wrote: 1) Given our defensive needs, we might want to tech Archery after Math.
2) Note Chubei will grow next turn, and though it could start working the plains cottage, another option would be to whip its spear.
3) About Kokejin: It's not impossible to sneak a military unit in there, but doing so early on would negatively affect the city's development quite a bit.
4) As for the Workers near and in Muqa, you probably have a plan at this point, but in case you'd like some suggestions:
Looking at civstats it looks like CML lost yet another city to Couerva, reducing his empire to 4 cities. That`s the THIRD city conquered by Couerva! An impressive showing so far I have to say. It looks like I`m unable to connect to Couerva in the game but according to Bacchus` post it`s a problem at his end, not mine. I`m just going to delay playing the turn until the issue is resolved.
I numbered some talking points from your last post.
1) Teching Archery is okay by me. It`s good for safety, especially our island cities would like to have the option of building archers than metal units. We`re going to need it before finishing Horseback Riding anyway.
2) Hmm, we could consider whipping away a population point for the overflow. It`d probably be better to have done so already on turn 76 but we could still do it this turn. Maybe whipping the spear for a barracks could be worthwhile?
3) Agreed. Let Muqa build an axe to send out to Kokejin. It`d rather build a granary and other buildings rather than military unit(s).
4) Regarding worker movements, I think we should let the worker in Muqa put in a turn of chopping in Borte`s bfc to help the development there. Building a road up on the W of Chubei to the cows and the bananas should be of second priority I think. We`ll have to start roading in the next 10 turns.
Our 6th city, Nambui was founded this turn. It revealed a fish resource which we`re not likely to get. Also, there are probably more islands to its south.
Chubei was whipped down to size 3. The overflow could be fueled into something useful. It still has a bit of happy to spare and is a candidate for further whipping later. I let it keep the corn to regrow quickly as Muqa`ll grow to size 6 next turn anyway.
The worker from Muqa moved 3 SW and chopped a turn. The workers close to Borte were split. One went NE and started a cottage while the other went down to the forest in Toregene`s bfc. It`s not in danger of being attacked by one of Joey`s units and I figured that we want to chop the forest down soon as to not leave an easy route for him into Toregene`s lands. The promoted chariot was moved to the tile SE of Muqa to act as a mobile defense force.
