The Backstabbers' Table - PBEM 4 Diplomacy Thread

[TheArchduke]

@Singaboy,
I do share your concerns, as I am a mere minor power, and you give me a lot to think about but I am not ready to commit to one side or the other at this point. I will state that I will remain neutral if England attacks you before our NAP runs out. I will think long and hard on your offer and let you know by T130 where I stand.

To be honest, Woden, the choice here is between letting Singaboy win (7 norwegian cities double his size which was already immense when he did not have Norway) or try to stop him.

Basically even if Oledavy and me are super successful and manage to capture 2-3 cities (which I personally doubt) we will have occupation penalties.

For pete´s sake, Singaboy is playing Germany which is a monster by default. In PBEM 2, Singaboy outproduced my double GG buffed army and threw away units against me until I could be ground to a halt. What do you think he will do with 14 cities in 10 turns? In 20 turns?

If someone needs help it is Oledavy and me, if Singaboy continues attacking.

Do note also that my offer of a Defensive Pact to Oledavy is to protect him from being eaten next. The reaction by Singaboy? A peace offer for Oledavy? Nah, he is good. Just needs to goad Spain or you into making his win even more easy.

I understand that you want to give into your builders instinct, but you got a NAP from Singaboy because we defensively allied

[Woden]

TheArchduke,
You also bring up valid points and I agree with you that Germany can not be allowed to swallow Japan whole. I just need to think about it for a day or two. Your NAP runs out with Germany on T120. I will let you and Singaboy know where I stand after I play my T119, if not sooner.

[Japper007]

Welp I'm eliminated...

Let me be the first to congratulate Singaboy on his conquest of err... me... No hard feelings Singaboy, you deserved it!

I want to say I had a lot of fun, as crazy as that sounds . Getting so thoroughly defeated in civ 6 hasn't happened to me for months, it was fun to be challenged again and to have found a community of serious players! 

GG WP and all that jazz.

PS I'll be reading your threads now  interested to see how it'll all turn out.

[CFCJesterFool]

GG Japper007! Glad you had fun.

[Singaboy]

Japper,

of course you know it's nothing personal. If it would be personal I should go after Archduke big time for what he did to me in PBEM2. So, Japper, you know I have been there too.

Thanks for playing this out all the way without stopping to give me a hard time. I had wanted to end it a lot earlier, but walls and archers made my life tougher. And boy, did you build a lot of cities...

[Woden]

Good game Japper007! Glad you had fun and better luck next time!

[Woden]

Since the cat will be out of the bag soon enough:
@TheArcduke, we are now besties!  . Don't worry, I am not playing in my sandbox. I just wanted walls everywhere before my war machine kicks in.  

@Singaboy: Good job taking out the Vikings so quickly! I can't, in good consciousness, help you gain more territory and power and pave your way to victory. Therefore, I reject your offer of an alliance. I will hold to our NAP until T130 and will stay neutral if England attacks you during that period. Besides, I don't think you need much help, since you have a science rate equal to Japan now. 

@oledavy: How about a NAP until T140 or T150? And a DP? FYI, I do have a NAP with Singaboy until T130, so there is that but if Spain decides to jump in, I might be able to help.

[Singaboy]

So, essentially I am playing a AW (Always War) game now against three of human players. Let's see how long I can last.

I could live with the fact that all of you will now attack me relentlessly (who asked me to be so expansive). What I can't really stomach is all the details that this thread has been used for sharing. Not only will you all attack me, no, you can share who attacks where, who builds what to avoid wasting hammers (wonders come to mind), which Great People to pursue.

I personally had not imagined the diplomatic thread setup to be this way and I am appealing to all of you now not exploit this further (you might as well write each other PMs with all details). Of course, you might all say, it's sour grapes Singaboy speaking. However, in the name of fairness, I guess it's all fine to agree on alliances etc in the open, but to share details such as who attacks which city, who builds which wonder, who goes after which Great Person goes too far. You might as well shift gold and resources around as fits (has been done already with oledavy and Archduke). You could even shift gold around to buy a Great Person that I might nab and then return the favor etc.
Those are your choices, but RB has always claimed for itself to be a civ community avoiding all the cheese (you could swap cities around for better tactical efforts). For example, I could gift all my cities to someone to be the king maker (bar my capital of course). There are limits and the issues outlined above cross those limits im my humble opinion.

I have learned my lesson and will not ever enter another MP game with such a diplomatic setting. I think the ingame AI diplomacy as well as an AW setting for everyone is fine with me.

[CFCJesterFool]

So, essentially I am playing a AW (Always War) game now against three of human players. Let's see how long I can last.

I could live with the fact that all of you will now attack me relentlessly (who asked me to be so expansive). What I can't really stomach is all the details that this thread has been used for sharing. Not only will you all attack me, no, you can share who attacks where, who builds what to avoid wasting hammers (wonders come to mind), which Great People to pursue.

I personally had not imagined the diplomatic thread setup to be this way and I am appealing to all of you now not exploit this further (you might as well write each other PMs with all details). Of course, you might all say, it's sour grapes Singaboy speaking. However, in the name of fairness, I guess it's all fine to agree on alliances etc in the open, but to share details such as who attacks which city, who builds which wonder, who goes after which Great Person goes too far. You might as well shift gold and resources around as fits (has been done already with oledavy and Archduke). You could even shift gold around to buy a Great Person that I might nab and then return the favor etc.  
Those are your choices, but RB has always claimed for itself to be a civ community avoiding all the cheese (you could swap cities around for better tactical efforts). For example, I could gift all my cities to someone to be the king maker (bar my capital of course). There are limits and the issues outlined above cross those limits im my humble opinion.

I have learned my lesson and will not ever enter another MP game with such a diplomatic setting. I think the ingame AI diplomacy as well as an AW setting for everyone is fine with me.

Well actually it is a 3 vs 2. No way do I let Japan get away with razing Pizarro. I have no beef with Brazil or England and would prefer not to fight either country but I have justified reason to be upset with Japan. Haven't declared war in-game just yet but don't let that fool you. Just takes time to get the pieces in order.

[oledavy]

I have learned my lesson and will not ever enter another MP game with such a diplomatic setting. I think the ingame AI diplomacy as well as an AW setting for everyone is fine with me.
Well actually it is a 3 vs 2. No way do I let Japan get away with razing Pizarro. I have no beef with Brazil or England and would prefer not to fight either country but I have justified reason to be upset with Japan. Haven't declared war in-game just yet but don't let that fool you. Just takes time to get the pieces in order.

CFCJesterfool, I've been formulating a post to you all day in my head, then you beat me to the punch 

So, let's be frank and earnest. You have basically no chance to win this game, and so in that position, I understand your motivation for wanting to attack me. I would do the same thing in your shoes. I totally get it. 

However, I would suggest that an attack on me is almost certainly not going to work, and there is a better path forward for you, one that actually puts you in position to be relevant again this game since the rest of us are about to have at each other. I want to be clear, I say none of the following to boast, or be like: "I have a frigate, ho, ho, ho." I'm simply laying out the situation.

So, first up. I have caravels, and I've left Square Rigging at 1t for awhile now while I cram out Quadriemes to upgrade. You have galleys and quadriemes by comparison. My navy is an era ahead of yours. You are on the cusp of knights, and I know you have a lot of heavy chariots you're looking to upgrade. However, with my naval superiority, they're not going to be able to reach the beaches. Second, even if I'm lying and I'm not on the cusp of frigates, I have Defender of the Faith. All it takes is walls and a couple swords (51 strength on coastal tiles in city borders), to make my my cities unassailable. That iron I just got from Archduke? It went to upgrading two warriors to swords in The Belt (The island you've been scouting). 

My first round of of quadriemes (building a few that I can upgrade) is nearly complete. Ceres is actually finishing one this next turn. If you try to attack me now, you will have to fight your way to the beaches. If you approach the beaches 10 turns from now, they will be frigates. 

To be frank though, I would rather mess with Singaboy, since a failure to stop him from consolidating his position means we all lose. To be clear, I don't even expect that Archduke and I will take more than a city or two (I'm pretty doubtful even of that tbh), and am not unconvinced that he can't win just with the land and cities he has and turtling on land for the rest of the game. However, as much as I would like for this game to be over so I can do nothing but play War of the Chosen, the only way someone besides Singaboy possibly wins is if the other players are able to dedicate the majority of their resources to containing him. This is the rationale for my current course of action. 

To that end, fighting you would be an unwelcome distraction. Moreover, with everyone else fighting the game leader for you, you're about to have 30 turns where nobody cares what you're doing and you can build cities and take city-states. 

So, if you find my above logic compelling, I would suggest something akin to the following deal: We sign a DoF, you can take your army of knights and take Jerusalem, my navy won't impede your progress towards that goal, and you won't be able to backstab me after you take it.