Caster of Magic Release thread : latest version 6.06!

[Seravy]

Yes, the above is true but I have a feeling treasure is actually worth negative picks no Myrror - total lack of nodes for the first half of game and much less opportunity for treasure puts it at a worse position than Arcanus regarding that, even if it means slightly easier access to endgame nodes and treasure. Emphasis on "slightly" as an Arcanus wizard in the late game can still reach Myrran nodes, they just need to travel more for it. Simply put, the higher monster budgets hurt more than the higher treasure helps until you have some really strong army that can fight them.
So I'd argue it's probably only worth 1-1.5 picks as is. With 3 Myrran opponents, I'd prefer to start on Arcanus instead as then it'd feel a net negative for 1 pick.

[Nelphine]

So I'd argue it's probably only worth 1-1.5 picks as is. With 3 Myrran opponents, I'd prefer to start on Arcanus instead as then it'd feel a net negative for 1 pick.

Your race is still stronger normal (which at least one enemy wizard still uses) you still get better minerals than arcanus. My analysis is that those two plus the difference in treasure is worth almost a pick (when only 2 enemies are on myrror.

The treasure itself is only worth maybe 0.2 of a pick. Its not a huge benefit. But neither are the other two benefits. But part if the treasure bonus is that the AI has a much harder time getting nodes in myrrie, not just the human gets more. And less AI nodes, means less power multiplied by the AI chearing bonuses. And the higher the difficulty the more important that is.

So there's no way treasure is a negative value.

However, getting 1 less opponent is worth at least a pick by itself. Thus why my conclusion us that the current model comes out slightly less than 2 picks.

[Nelphine]

This is also why I want it based on difficulty not on the plane the human is on. That would make only lunatic (or maybe master ) have 3 opponents with you on myrror - so even if the myrran retort isn't worth quite a full pick (without a reduced opponent), it would be something you could just choose for myrror, and all its effects, and not worry about the metagame of where the opponents are.

[Seravy]

Maybe it's because I use sprites often but I perceive Myrran treasure to be worth -0.5 picks, not +0.2. Not getting early nodes and money hurts me more than the AI. (and reduces the fun factor on top of it)

I think I have said it enough times but 3 opponents on Myrror is a big no (unless it's randomly generated that way - then, bad luck, but it's ultra rare so I don't mind.). I can't imagine spending a pick on that, if anything I'd demand the game to give me a free pick for starting from such a bad position. (yes my race is stronger, so is everyone elses, they get double the bonus from their extra ores as me, and my magic is less useful against stronger races as well, leaving me with less room to gain advantage through playing better. Oh and the wizard alone on the other plane, while not having a better race, will have a faster start (myrran races generally grow slower) and get much more easy nodes than a Myrran would. So they might not be that bad on their units but they will probably get ahead in magic research quite significantly.)

[Nelphine]

How does it hurt you more than the AI? Anything they get, they multiply into a huge amount. You don't. It might FEEL bad, but that doesn't make it actually worse for you. 

That's one of the biggest reasons myrran AI are often not the strongest AI - the arcanus ones get nodes, the nyrran ones don't.

Don't get me wrong, fun factor is huge, so I don't think you should have 3 myrran oppinsnts on advanced or expert (and I don't think you should on master, but I'm willing to let that one go either way).

But if you're playing lunatic, you're already choosing craziness. Having one less opponent is absolutely huge, and so myrran (even at 2 picks) will almost always be easier, even assuming you do exactly the same strategy (even the same arcanus race!) which takes away a lot from the reason to choose lunatic in the first place.

[Catwalk]

Still agreeing with Nelphine Don't care all that much, though. Myrran is fun right now, I don't mind it being an overpowered pick.

[Nelphine]

This is true. I'm not arguing that myrran should be changed, only that its not balanced.

[Arnuz]

Maybe it's because I use sprites often but I perceive Myrran treasure to be worth -0.5 picks, not +0.2. Not getting early nodes and money hurts me more than the AI. (and reduces the fun factor on top of it)

I think I have said it enough times but 3 opponents on Myrror is a big no (unless it's randomly generated that way - then, bad luck, but it's ultra rare so I don't mind.). I can't imagine spending a pick on that, if anything I'd demand the game to give me a free pick for starting from such a bad position. (yes my race is stronger, so is everyone elses, they get double the bonus from their extra ores as me, and my magic is less useful against stronger races as well, leaving me with less room to gain advantage through playing better. Oh and the wizard alone on the other plane, while not having a better race, will have a faster start (myrran races generally grow slower) and get much more easy nodes than a Myrran would. So they might not be that bad on their units but they will probably get ahead in magic research quite significantly.)

Seravy I see your point, I agree with you qualitatively - for me too myrran means getting into nodes later and therefore starting the snowball later. OTOH, quantitatively, the snowball on myrran is an avalanche. I've done another game with undead dwarves and I was rather unlucky - not much minerals/power, no nodes or towers till 07-08, and another dwarf with better deserts that is double my power. But, I've still taken the first node before thanks to some undead efreeti from lairs, for which I had to sacrifice half my ghouls, and the snowballing meant that I recovered in 1 year. I'm around 3/4 the others' power now, and have undead+buffed 5 hydras and 2 behemoths and I just took 3 djinns, the next step is the dragon nodes. The game is over.
For what concerns fun... It's a challenge, and when you manage to crack early the colossi node thanks to astrologer and sacrificing some stuff for it and reap the rewards, it's a lot of fun at least for me - obviously subjective.

So I'd argue it's probably only worth 1-1.5 picks as is. With 3 Myrran opponents, I'd prefer to start on Arcanus instead as then it'd feel a net negative for 1 pick.

Your race is still stronger normal (which at least one enemy wizard still uses) you still get better minerals than arcanus. My analysis is that those two plus the difference in treasure is worth almost a pick (when only 2 enemies are on myrror.

The treasure itself is only worth maybe 0.2 of a pick. Its not a huge benefit.

Haha, it might not be huge in 1410+ but in 06-07 when your cities are underdeveloped a couple of myrran nodes or towers mean being able to buy everything everywhere, or starting with amp towers... It's definitely worth a lot, I'd say half retort.

I must say that the crowdedness point is quite important though. I'm still not sure where to place the retort, but from the balance PoV only it feels like a 2 to me, but 3 opponents would make it worst than 1.

Idea/proposal. How about having it always like this? 2/2 when starting on both sides. This would balance myrran by boosting arcanus. It would reduce a bit the issues with excessive summoning at high difficulties.

[zitro1987]

Do lower difficulties also have 2 opponents in myrror when playing in myrror or just 1? If playing difficulties like 'normal' and 'easy', I'd vote for the same number of opponents in same plane for the fun factor. They are less likely to declare war, less aggressive, play stupider, etc.

[Seravy]

Normal and Easy have zero opponents on Myrror because they use the default wizards and cannot customize.
There is only one default wizard with Myrran, if the human picks that, it's literally impossible to generate one for the AI. Even if they don't, the same wizard always being in the game and on Myrror is unfun.