After posting the above I realized that I cannot easily re-generate resources on one of the previously posted maps. A tiny amount of foresight could have made this possible and can be easily implemented so that I can re-roll the resources on the next map I roll.
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[SPOILERS - NO PLAYERS] The Final Clusterfuck: The PB38 Map and Lurker Thread
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January 22nd, 2018, 19:49
(This post was last modified: January 22nd, 2018, 20:09 by RefSteel.)
Cool! In the meantime, I'll keep working with map C (or whatever Mardoc suggests/starts on instead) to keep refining my ideas about the geometry and/or to keep making progress in case we end up sticking with it. If we do regenerate a new base map though, is there an easy way to add sea ice at the extreme north and south of the map with the script? (Please only do this if it's very easy; it doesn't take that long to do by hand anyway.) If possible, I would put ice on ocean tiles only (not coast) and only in the top and bottom three rows, specifically 65% at y=0 and y=87, 40% at y=1 and y=86, and 15% at y=2 and y=85. (I tested this in a spreadsheet, and these numbers seemed to give the best results.)
Further spreadsheet testing suggests what I mean by "drastically" above: Dividing resource probability by about 20 for each adjacent tile with a resource already present. Especially if it's easier to implement, just forbidding resources on tiles with any adjacent resource (The actual default for most Civ4 mapscripts, I think) is probably also fine. [EDIT2: Edited something here, saw Cornflakes had posted in the meantime, and will post it down below instead.]
GJ's tool does not appear to have ocean ice as a defined tile type so I do not believe it is possible to add using his tool. I'm using his tool basically as a "translator" to turn my python output into Civ4 tiles. Ocean ice and horses appear to be two missing tile types which I'm unable to translate.
I can easily implement 1/20 probability for any adjacent tile ... that's the method I'm using now except with a much lower denominator. I did some brief testing of GJ's tool in regards to layering starts. I think I've figured it out, except when I go over 18 civs it errors out. I'm going to as GJ how to load a mod since I could not figure that part out.
Actually, I'm pretty sure I do have the ability to copy-past the ocean ice that you hand-drew already into the new map. I'll just extract the top & bottom 3 rows and paste them into the map when I make my pass of hand editing.
January 22nd, 2018, 20:12
(This post was last modified: January 22nd, 2018, 21:00 by RefSteel.)
Sounds great!
On the starts: If you create the westmost 15 starts into one map, and then the eastmost 10 starts into an otherwise-identical map, it's easy to merge them into an RBMod 25 civ map. As long as the divide is east/west, the format of the text file makes this pretty trivial. [EDIT: It would only take me about 5 minutes; I remembered a workaround to make sorting out the player and team numbers simpler.] Also, as my thoughts about strategic resources continue to evolve, I would suggest reducing the probability of copper by a lot if a new map is rerolled with new resources. I now feel that Copper and Horses should not be present in contested zones if possible, but readily available in "back lines" areas. Krill forward-settling Ventessel in PB37 and finding copper in his new capital is just a special case of Any Other Pink Dot getting an early military resource by luck or planning. Pink Dots should be risky moves, not One Right Answers to simultaneously claim territory, excellent yields, and the strategic resources needed to hold them.
January 23rd, 2018, 03:26
(This post was last modified: January 23rd, 2018, 03:48 by RefSteel.)
(January 22nd, 2018, 20:02)Cornflakes Wrote: I can easily implement 1/20 probability for any adjacent tile I just noticed the important difference here. (Emphasis in the original.) So I did some further testing, which suggests that if the multiplier applies "for any" adjacent resource, the reduction needs to be even greater: [EDIT: I left out a factor; ~1/35 should be enough, though there's really no such thing as making the denominator too large.] So, given that it's easier to implement than the "for each," and if you do have your script cook up a new map after all with these settings, I would definitely suggest upping the denominator all the way to [EDIT: 35+]; I think that would yield significantly better results overall. Details of my findings:
January 23rd, 2018, 09:36
(This post was last modified: January 23rd, 2018, 09:36 by RefSteel.)
I didn't post a got-it because this is taking things in a different direction from my previous ones anyway (and we'll likely end up working on a different map if Cornflakes generates one) but here's the first proof of concept for semihemidemiequalish center interactions between corners of a squished pentagon.
The relevant attempt is the western rift lakes area between starts 01-05. Maintenance costs say this is still quite unequal, as does high-level cultural pressure, and the sense that "this is closer to their/my capital!" so I don't know if we'll actually bother - it would certainly be easier to just let everyone have two meaningful earlyish neighbors only - but I wanted to try it out, and if the problems are judged acceptable, it's looking viable.
January 23rd, 2018, 17:39
(This post was last modified: January 26th, 2018, 17:41 by RefSteel.)
Updated from...
(January 20th, 2018, 09:11)Mardoc Wrote: Current state (will re-edit as I notice more responses)...above. First round: Decision made: AdrienIer Commodore Mackoti naufrager superdeath Dtay Aretas Donovan Zoi elkad 2metraninja WilliamLP Pindicator GermanJoey Mr. Cairo plako The Black Sword Rusten Dark Savant Dreylin B4ndit OT4E + chumchu Old Harry + Fintourist + shallow_thought + TheHumanHydra Boldly Going Nowhere Gavagai spacetyrantxenu Still deciding: Nobody! On to the second round! To reroll: AdrienIer Mackoti naufrager dtay (civ only) GermanJoey (civ only) Mr. Cairo (civ only) The Black Sword (leaders only) OT4E + chumchu (civ only) Old Harry + Fintourist + shallow_thought + TheHumanHydra (leaders only) Gavagai (civ only) First round options (to check for repeats upon re-roll)
January 24th, 2018, 08:23
(This post was last modified: January 24th, 2018, 08:24 by RefSteel.)
Illustration of the rift lakes idea I was talking about above:
In the case above (and in the save upthread) the rift lakes are saltwater bodies, just barely too small for shipbuilding. In this alternate version, some peaks are mixed in to split the lakes into smaller freshwater bodies: Other variations are possible of course. As I mentioned above, this is far from perfect. I'm kiiiiind of inclined to try it anyway, but I'd like opinions from more-veteran MP players: Is this viable in terms of balance/mutual-access? Alternatives include just leaving out the central lakes and peaks altogether (meaning Start 01 has only two real neighbors but Start 02 has four....) or dividng them with a single, larger lake/inland-sea (or collection of lakes and peaks) so that each player has only two effective neighbors as in my 0122 savefile above: Note that the question isn't so much to do with this specific terrain, which may change completely if Cornflakes posts a new map, but about the general idea of using lakes and mountains to cordon off a central region such that there are similar unit walking distances between the five capitals and the center, with arguably better access to better "entrances" for more distant civs but all the advantages of as-the-crow-flies proximity for the nearer civs. (I've been calling them rift lakes because my real-world inspiration is the Great Rift Valley in Africa.) |
![[Image: riftlakepoc.JPG]](https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-i_yI7pWWXhU/Wmh7_CAy-oI/AAAAAAAAEko/8QbWUr4mDscchNjE4ByhUSlTnIkmvS9hwCLcBGAs/s1600/riftlakepoc.JPG)
![[Image: riftlakefpoc.JPGp]](https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-iXspDd6OKZs/Wmh7_GkQGWI/AAAAAAAAEkk/VB_feGGLjKAunPKGj-Q-JzmNfXkjndplQCLcBGAs/s1600/riftlakefpoc.JPGp)
![[Image: ring%2Bonly%2Briftlake.JPG]](https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-MHKxqlKSKTE/WmiGvJfydnI/AAAAAAAAEk8/eBHSpKyHAWE0Wgkn3tTQzbNSoqeNLGbuwCLcBGAs/s1600/ring%2Bonly%2Briftlake.JPG)