As a French person I feel like it's my duty to explain strikes to you. - AdrienIer

Create an account  

 
[SPOILERS] Suboptimal Goes Waltzing Matilda

Missive from the Australian Goverment in Exile
To: Archduke, Macedonian General
Re: Turn 101 City Review of Former Australian Lands

Glad you liked the city placement and that the initial empire building was keeping with Good Settling Practices.  Regarding the lack of builder improvements you should check out the view on the Appeal filter as of this turn.  It will show that both Campus districts were placed on Breathtaking tiles near multiple forests and that chopping those forests would have dropped the appeal value far enough to reduce the +3Icon_Science bonus to +1.  The appeal penalty for mines was also a consideration.  A bit limiting in terms of my improvement options but saved quite a bit on the builder charges.  As far as the horses to the north, I didn't buy that tile for three reasons:

1) Already had two horse resources at Cassowary
2) Needed the gold for other purposes
3) Didn't have a citizen to work the tile

Hooroo,

Suboptimal
Prime Minister in Exile
Reply

I’ve been through the others’ threads and have started lurking there, interested in both the Persian-Polish war of aggression and to see if Alhambram will be able to clean up my mess (short answer – nope, screwed that one up too much). Emperor K’s approach in the west is confusing. Alhmabram got off to a good start – I need to take a deeper look at his city management approach as growing cities in plains-heavy regions has always been troublesome for me, even in SP.

My flak jacket also arrived from Amazon today so it’s time to go through the lurker comments….at 42 posts it’s a short one. This should be quick…I will also note that I’m typing this up in the same manner as my game reports – almost simultaneously with the action.

First off, the lurker poll for which DLC reigns supreme...I’d agree with the poll results if it were Archduke playing against himself. However, they forgot who was in the driver’s seat of Australia. lol

Moving on, Oledavy did a very good analysis of Australia’s abilities, their benfits and their pitfalls. He also touched on the problem with “unchoppables” on page 2 (post #17). In both Cassowary and Irukandji the western forests were “not choppable” – one chop and the Campus district lost 2Icon_Science. On the flip side, this left several riverside hilltop forests for lumbermills to make them 1Icon_Food/5Icon_Production tiles. Now, yes, Breathtaking tiles are usually coastal but as Irukandji showed they can happen in the interior as well.

I never did get to Outback Stations. However, if I was able to manage it then most of the land between Blue-Ringed Octopus and Cassowary would have been covered in them. By the rough numbers, on plains terrain the Outback Station would have been a much better option than farms. The issue was whether to put down farms and go over them with stations, create a few farms and then put down stations on the rest, or just wait for Guilds. However, as Oledavy also noted, most PBEM’s to date have ended not too long after Guilds would normally come in.

In Post #19 after my Turn 4 screenshot Oledavy suggested settling on the plains hills NE of the wheat. I eventually put Cassowary smack on the NE horses. On that turn report I mused that settling on the forested plains hills would be best. Heh...shows what I know. As we all know, I took Door #3. My real-time thinking was that I wanted one of the horses in the first ring to avoid having to buy a tile. Looking back, I should have payed attention to the very tile picker study I was running. Had I done the scoring ahead of time I would have realized that the horse tile would have been picked first.

Then we get to Sulla at Post #34. What was I doing? Being totally inept as I outlined in my Turn 79 report preamble. Jabah nailed it with Post #39, particularly his second point. On the next post by Chevalier Mal Fet, he left out one point – hetairoi are +10 to combat strength under a Great General since their bonus is doubled. Regarding walls, I think that Ancient Walls are only really good for slowing people down in this manner. The later generation walls have greater damage capacity and might be more effective, but no one builds them. Besides, for all practical purposes and despite my limiting understanding of the military side of things, if an opponent has gotten a few units adjacent to the city it’s almost certain that losing the city is “when”, not “if”.

Sulla, thank you for Post #42. School is in session. thumbsup I will also add that I was going to put up a post to get opinions how how I should have handled “The Gap”, but you beat me to it. To address one specific observation you made, yes, almost all of my experience with Civ 6 combat has been against the AI (and Prince level at that) with PBEM 3 being my first (disastrous) and PBEM 6 being my second (and likewise disastrous) encounter with human opposition. I’ll learn...eventually.

If I got another opportunity to play Australia I’d most certainly take it (probably even over trying out one of the new R&F civs). Maybe if/when Emperor K’s time in this PBEM is over I’ll see if he wants to square off in a duel or two (Australia v Poland match that never was?) and I’ll take this civ for another drive. It’ll also give the vets something to point and laugh at as the relative newbies fight it out in The Blunderdome. lol
Reply

One caveat before I write this: I've fought all of 1 short multiplayer war in Civ VI, so I have no idea what I'm talking about. Please disregard this as the ravings of an armchair general:

One thing that was driving me nuts in the later turns of your war, suboptimal - that is, after your first army was wiped out - was that you made good use of the production bonus to churn out a huge army of horsemen - but you never massed them! It seemed like lots of times you'd just dangle them out there to get slaughtered by the Archduke, instead of pulling back to safety and trying to gather a larger force. 

Here's some examples:



Here, Archduke's whole army is outside of your capital, apart from some scraps. Losing this city is basically game over (although honestly losing Mouse Spider was a heavy blow, too, and I'm not sure there's anything you could have done here), but you've got two archers and a horseman fortified up at Blue Ringed Octopus still. My assumption is that you were holding those garrison forces there in case the Macedonians struck for that city, but I think this was a mistake. 

1)It's always better to concentrate your army instead of dispersing it. Defense should be done by units (or walls!) buying time until relief units can get there. It looks like Australia defended with two small garrison armies, each of which was overwhelmed separately by a Macedonian army not much larger than the two armies combined. 

2)You can see where most of the Macedonians are, and know that if they move on BRO you can hit them from the south as they try to take the city. Thus, most of your units would be best placed at Irukandji.

Another issue I think I see is your horseman in this picture. What's he up to? He was fortified in both shots, which seems, er, suboptimal (couldn't resist). I think he got picked off by all the units Archduke could marshal on the other side of the river, and he didn't contribute much besides occupying space for a while. Could you have pulled back, given up the square right in front of the river, then hit whatever Macedonian unit crossed with all your might? It might also have failed, but I think you might have bloodied the Macedonians' nose a little more. 

Moving on, the siege of Irukandji lasts 4 turns, while you had a nest of archers up at BRO. I know the archers wouldn't do much against most of Archduke's units, but they would have done somethin', surely. I woulda moved them up, instead of waiting for them to be next on the chopping block. Eventually, Irukandji falls, leaving you with this situation:




You write that you don't know which way Archduke is going to swing, so you're trying to cover both cities, but again I think this is a poor deployment to meet that threat. Again, you've got two smaller armies, most of them just fortified in place, neither one supporting the other. This means that the Macedonians could pick off each army on its own, and since they have better troops, with more experience, led by a GG, that's a very one-sided proposition. Instead, again I think you should ahve concentrated your horsemen (backed up by the archers) in the center, where you could then take them en masse to hit Archduke's army. Hell, if he went for BRO, you could even have lunged for Irukandji - not sure if that was a good idea, but striking back would have felt nice. 

A couple of turns later, Archduke has made his intentions clear:



You write that you couldn't find a better place to stick one horseman, so you pushed him across the river. Meanwhile, Archduke's crossbow picked off another horseman you had south of the city. Again, I think both horsemen could have joined the modest army at Cassowary and formed a mass to hit Archduke's flank. As it is, watching this unfold it felt like you were losing horsemen as fast as you produced them, sending them out one by one to feed Archduke's army experience. 

A few turns later and BRO's fall is near:


Notice that as the city falls, you had 4 units at Cassowary sitting tight, leaving the small army at BRO to be overwhelmed. I think that's the common theme in your defense after losing the battle at the frontiers - your units don't really work together, but instead fight their own separate battles. 

Now, to be sure, you're facing an almost hopeless situation by this point. Archduke's army has more experience, he has TWO UUs on the field, and he's got a GG backing them up. But more importantly, he's using his entire army as a united force. Every unit pitches in, so he gangs up on one or two of your isolated units with his whole force, predictably wiping them out with ease, while doing the same thing on a larger scale with your cities - he isolates one and picks it off, while the defenders of other cities don't intervene. 

Anyway, BRO predictably falls and this is the last tactical set-up of your field army:



I get that you have Alcazars here, but why is your crossbow on the front lines? Would it not be better to swap him with the horseman, so he can shoot out of the city while the horseman holds the fort? Anyway, you opt for a static defense here - you stick your units on the best defensive tiles you can, and just brace for the end, as far as I can tell from the reporting. At this point, of course, the war is lost regardless, but I wonder if fortifying in place was the best move. There're horsemen and other melee units in the rear that basically sit tight and wait to be overwhelmed - again, it's letting Archduke dictate the pace, and pick off units one by one. Thus, he conquers all of Australia with hardly any losses. 

So yeah, to sum up: In your next multiplayer war (says the blowhard who's never fought a multiplayer war in his life), try to make sure your units work together. Keep them massed in an army, and don't disperse them in penny-packet defenders all over your borders. You had the production and the numbers to overwhelm the tough Macedonian army, or at least bleed it - but it looks like they never had to face everything at once. Instead, they massacred isolated units and took out cities one by one. 

I think you reported a great game, and your economic development is impressive! I'm playing a SP game as Australia now and I didn't do nearly as well as you did developing it. I also think you have great builder/micro plans - your only real weakness, I think, is the tendency I noted to spread your units out and fortify them in place, instead of using them actively and as a united whole. Thanks for the detailed reports throughout and for being a good sport about everything. thumbsup
I Think I'm Gwangju Like It Here

A blog about my adventures in Korea, and whatever else I feel like writing about.
Reply

Chev, thanks for the feedback and input.  

Beyond the dispersal of units the main issue I was struggling with was that attacking anything after Boudica showed up was their combat strengths -- defensively almost all of his units were routinely in the low 50's (remember, hypaspists get +3 support bonuses on defense, not +2). Attacking out was putting low strengths vs. high strengths and not doing much damage, while staying fortified, though it made the units vulnerable to multiple attacks, provided a higher defensive CS.  At least, that was my real time reasoning.  

I'll be watching your PBEM 7 maneuvers with interest. nod
Reply

(January 24th, 2018, 16:01)suboptimal Wrote: Missive from the Australian Goverment in Exile
To: Archduke, Macedonian General
Re: Turn 101 City Review of Former Australian Lands

Glad you liked the city placement and that the initial empire building was keeping with Good Settling Practices.  Regarding the lack of builder improvements you should check out the view on the Appeal filter as of this turn.  It will show that both Campus districts were placed on Breathtaking tiles near multiple forests and that chopping those forests would have dropped the appeal value far enough to reduce the +3Icon_Science bonus to +1.  The appeal penalty for mines was also a consideration.  A bit limiting in terms of my improvement options but saved quite a bit on the builder charges.  As far as the horses to the north, I didn't buy that tile for three reasons:

1) Already had two horse resources at Cassowary
2) Needed the gold for other purposes
3) Didn't have a citizen to work the tile

Hooroo,

Suboptimal
Prime Minister in Exile

Dear Prime Minister in Exile,

Any time you want there is a spot open on the civilian side of the macedonian government. Your record on economic development is spotless.
I see that the australians seem to like their appeal high and their nature unspoiled. Thankfully those are not consideration for Macedonia, we will build those mines right next to the egghead sites.... er campi.

Forever onwards,
TheArchduke
Macedonian General
Reply

First off I want to say that your economic play, analysis and thought is really up to snuff. You were by far the strongest contender in this game if it not were for the war. I apologize if I sound a bit too harsh in 1-2 points concerning the war.
The tilepicker math is really whacky. Why not give the player the decision.
Bad luck with your scout running into the barbarian horde that came crushing down on my capital.
The dow by Persia at turn 34 was a godsend. Imo it was a mixed blessing. You became too complacent at your perceived strength and did not value your units too much afterwards from the looks of it.
Every single loss of a unit is a tragedy in CIV VI. It marks a lost opportunity for a cheap upgrade down the road. Especially the 2 warriors you lost were a massive blow.
My loss of an archer near Irukandji hounded me for the rest of the game, as I was low on crossbow shots and never managed to produce another one easily or cheaply.
 
 
Turn 45 was a tipping point. I was very, very afraid you would kill off my invasion of Kandy at this point. I overestimated your capabilities and you firm builder mode mindset you were in at that point by building 2 settlers.

Your military plans were always wildly unrealistic.

I’m currently positioning to go on the offensive against Archduke, with Urteau, the Austrex or both in my sights. The plan will be to move the first two horsemen up the east side of the mountain range and across the river.  The third horseman will complete at the same time.  If Urteau’s city strength is still at 10 (or even below 20) and there’s no sign of walls then I’ll send the first pair to that city and the remaining horsemen to over to Austrex.  If Urteau goes over 20 or gets walls up in that time I’ll attack Austrex first while I get additional forces in place.

With all due respect, what are you talking about? This assumes that I have no forces in the area whatsoever. Horseman are not invincible at strength 36. Even a fortified warrior comes to 31 and add terrain to it and he can hold his own. The defender is at a distinctive advantage. Just check out how strong, promoted and supported my units were and how cautious my attacks have been.


Basically you will conquer Austrex with 2 horses because there are no units and terrain there?

Turn 61 with my GG done and two UUs on my hand, is the time were you should have gone into fully fledged panic and defense mode. Any stray horseman going north will and were easily killed by random units moving up to the front line off my production.


The hypaspist is down to less than 20 HP.  I expect the horseman on the right is going to bite the dust next turn or come very close to it, depending on how Archduke promoted his archers.  I'll need to maneuver things next turn to get my uninjured warrior out of the corner.  The wounded one will head back to Blue-Ringed Octopus to heal up and await an upgrade.  If one or more of the archers cross the river I'll have to decide whether I finish off the hypaspist or try to take out the archers (though he can't take a city with archers....)
 
How exactly do you want to finish off the hypasist? I sense too much wars against the AI there. That unit is going back to heal. The only right move was to fall back if you were not able to kill off the unit. The same later on.
Turn 68
Fall back and do not suicide warriors. Make me pay for them. Basically I got 10 GG points for free that turn.
After that the name of the game is concentration of force, even on the defensive. Delaying my army at the price of units is not something you want to do.
 
Wow, serious bad luck on Mouse Spider. Still as soon as the ram came, Irukandji fell, Mouse Spider would have folded lateron, but I would have not been able to heal up in some friendly territory.
Reply

And finally to get your morale up (if you need that) reread the "Spanking of theArchduke" as I would call it or PBEM #1. I learned some hard lessons there.

1.)Preservation of forces
2.)Standing low tech army for upgrades
3.)GGs
4.)Defensive terrain
5.) Expect the unexpected (naval invasion)
Reply

Your comments aren't too harsh -- as you and Sulla both observed (and which I have not been shy about stating) all of my combat experience is against the AI (and Prince-level, at that...see my Epic 5....280 something turn epic). PBEM 3 and 6 are my first two runs at MP gaming so there's going to be growing pains. I think in this regard my Turn 79 preamble pretty much says where I'm at there. Just gotta take my lumps, learn my lessons and move on to the next one.
Reply



Forum Jump: