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(March 13th, 2018, 22:02)skanar Wrote: One idea, and I'm not saying it's a good one, is to consider chopping at least part of the second builder to get the Craftsmanship eureka in a reasonable amount of time.
Not sure I have the right formulas/am calculating things correctly, but I believe you've finished 2 civics, which means forest chops are worth 27 cogs, correct? The second builder costs 54, so one forest will be worth half the next builder. Two chops would mean the builder is "free", or, maybe a better way to think about it, that your "first" builder has four charges instead of three (3+1 remaining on the first after the two chops). Of course it means paying the opportunity cost of the chops (using them on the 2nd builder instead of with a policy card later for overflow into a district or building), which is an awful lot, and you still get the increase (to 58) on the next one.
Where is your planned location for the Holy Site? Is it time to start dotmapping districts as well as cities?
I think I'm going to just hard-build a second builder (with ilkum, which unlocks at Craftsmanship, I think?) to chop out the district. So far, only Alhambram and Archduke seem to have found natural wonders, if I'm reading the score right, and neither is especially religiously inclined. My main competition, Emperor K, still doesn't have Astrology, I think.
My main hesitation to chop out Builder #2 is the escalating cost of builders - for using 2 chops and losing two forests, I basically get 1 extra builder charge - but I also get the cost increase on every builder thereafter, which is not insignificant. I think that tips the scale into "probably not worth it," given that there's no particular rush here [note to self: delete this post if this blows up in my face].
(March 14th, 2018, 04:44)Ituralde Wrote: So naming scheme is SpaceX autonomous space port drone ships.
I would like to imagine that it was harder than just googling 'Just read the instructions' and looking at the first hit. Now I have to find out where SpaceX has taken their naming scheme from.
(edit: It looks like they're inspired by Ian M. Banks.)
I was prepared to say close, but no cigar, but your edit is a lot closer. Iain Banks (his name has snuck an extra I in there) is criminally underappreciated, though his reputation is (sadly posthumously) increasing. If you haven't given the Culture novels a shot, I highyl recommend - though do start with The Player of Games or Use of Weapons, which better showcase the universe than the first novel, Consider Phlebas, which is a bit of an odd duck.
Elon Musk is also a fan. I'm not following the drones' naming, since to my knowledge there's only two of the things, but I am using Banks' works as a database.
March 14th, 2018, 18:07
(This post was last modified: March 14th, 2018, 18:07 by Chevalier Mal Fet.)
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Well, I did say I don't know what I'm doing.
Here's the current situation:
Not bad, I don't think - I have 2nd highest science now that I'm working the mercury, and that could be a product of turn order, or another player having a higher population, or who knows what. Soon I'll add a farm on the rice for the Irrigation eureka and 5 food, and then I'll quarry the stone for a 2/3 tile. Generally quarries aren't the best improvements, and its' possible this is the only one I'll build. However, the only other possible improvement is a deer camp, and that's even worse - I want to harvest the deer and chop the forest, not work a piddly 1/3/1 tile for the rest of the game. The quarry will be better than most, since it's on a hill, and that will and me the Craftsmanship and Masonry inspirations.
So why do I feel like I don't know what I'm doing? Well, Alhambram in the same time period has built a builder, a settler, AND a monument in his capital. Did he overflow some chops to get that? I'm trying to save all but essential chops for later, when Magnus is around, and better policy cards. I didn't see anything vanish at his capital, but I only have vision on half the tiles.
Maybe going settler first was a mistake - with so many strong tiles, I thought that working unimproved ones for a while was no worries, and I wanted to continue to grow to grab new ones. But Alhambram did the opposite, and he STILL got city #2 down faster. Maybe the improved tiles from the builder would have paid for themselves later?
Oh, well, hopefully it won't make too much of a difference in the end. But I need to focus more and play better than I have. Probably gonna do my first score report later - it looks like I'm getting my butt kicked, but a big part of that is era score which I'm not chasing yet.
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(March 14th, 2018, 07:02)Chevalier Mal Fet Wrote: (March 14th, 2018, 04:44)Ituralde Wrote: So naming scheme is SpaceX autonomous space port drone ships.
I would like to imagine that it was harder than just googling 'Just read the instructions' and looking at the first hit. Now I have to find out where SpaceX has taken their naming scheme from.
(edit: It looks like they're inspired by Ian M. Banks.)
I was prepared to say close, but no cigar, but your edit is a lot closer. Iain Banks (his name has snuck an extra I in there) is criminally underappreciated, though his reputation is (sadly posthumously) increasing. If you haven't given the Culture novels a shot, I highyl recommend - though do start with The Player of Games or Use of Weapons, which better showcase the universe than the first novel, Consider Phlebas, which is a bit of an odd duck.
Elon Musk is also a fan. I'm not following the drones' naming, since to my knowledge there's only two of the things, but I am using Banks' works as a database.
Iain M. Banks is on my list of authors I want to get around reading. He just moved up a slot.
I also saw that there's only a third of the platforms planned as well, but 'Just read the instructions' and 'Of course I still love you' are the names of the of the first and second platform, so I thought that must be it. Third one will be 'A Shortfall of Gravitas' inspired by another ship name from Banks. So he seems to use the same database you're using. 
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Are you kidding me? My third city was going to be "A Startling Lack of Gravitas," which is almost identical! I knew about the first two drones, but not the third!
Musk, you copycat! 
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Great naming theme. Great books (if sometimes overly miserable - I'm looking at you "Matter"). His none SF stuff could also be pretty good.
It may have looked easy, but that is because it was done correctly - Brian Moore
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Sorry for lackluster reporting - flat forgot to take pictures the last turn. The builder is standing on the marsh, ready to improve next turn. Turn after that he'll step on the quarry, and turn after that he'll finish.
Warrior is slogging his way north and west for the city-state I suspect lies that way. Here's hoping Japper missed it, I'd like ONE city state bonus (Alhambram! ) this game. Slinger is working his way along the coast north and east (I found the coast, by the way, right where you'd think it is). I want to peek at Japper's lands. Finally, the cities are working on a warrior and a slinger, to more fully scout my area and keep my neighbors (:cough: Alhambram! ) from getting any ideas.
It's a good thing I'm committed to a dark age, because it's looking like I won't have a choice - my only era score remains the two points from meeting my neighbors. No nearby barbs have appeared yet, I haven't killed even ONE which will make Bronze Working annoying, I don't have a handy UU to build, and Seowons will need to wait until size 4 before I start kicking in the science. As long as I don't let either neighbor invade with a bunch of swords, it's okay to be a little laggardly in science at first. You only want science to unlock a key unit, building, or wonder (or some bonuses like Apprenticeship), so most of the time it's not urgent to have a tech RIGHT NOW unless you're racing for a wonder. It'll be later in the game, when I can build Seowons en masse and enable rationalism/natural philsophy, that I can and should build a huge science lead and then crush my chosen neighbor with a teched-up army.
Speaking of my neighbors, Era score is getting harder to track, but I spotted both Emperor and Japper's score go up by 1 point. I suspect this means that Emperor is Japper's other neighbor, which would be fantastic news. Japper has a distressing tendency to get rushed by a militarily superior rival (PBEM4...5...7....) and the last thing I need is for the Cree to get swallowed up by a War Cart rush or a horde of Mongols later on. This means that Alhambram, a proven veteran of warfare, is next to one of the two rush civs - and the two rush civs border each other. This seems about hte best arrangement that could be expected. Georgia has faith bonuses, wants to declare protectorate wars (stay away from Emperor's city-state allies), and kind of lame uniques, versus Japper's boosted trade routes and mekwap improvements (I know i misspelled that, but I'm kind of over googling how to spell every single Cree unique) which will give him a big economic advantage. My next big worry in international relations, then, is Archduke/Rowain swallowing up one of their neighbors and snowballing. There's not much I can do about that, but if it comes to it I'm willing to commit my army to defend Alhambram if he gets rushed. I'll see if he accepts a DOF down the road, maybe if I can grab DOTF so he'll be discouraged from viewing me as a target. DOFs with both neighbors would suit me fine!
Anyway, enough metagame speculation. Plan right now: Military units, then a builder from the capital, then a Holy Site or two. Expensive but worth if it I make myself a porcupine of culture, with Jesuit Education and Church Property as a backup.
March 17th, 2018, 10:18
(This post was last modified: March 17th, 2018, 10:19 by Chevalier Mal Fet.)
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Okay, I have refined a bit the plan for expansion. We just need state workforce and Early Empire. I was going to say Masonry, but that's dumb 'coz you don't get Limes to Defensive Tactics.
Anyway, State Workforce nets you 1 governor title, inspired by building a district. We'll grab that with a Holy Site, check. Early Empire grants you a second title, and Colonization. So here's what we're going to do:
Government: Agoge & Colonization. Have at least 1 builder out. We take Magnus with our first Title, and (this is the refinement I added because earlier I apparently didnt' have a functioning brain) we add PROVISION with the second title. As a reminder, here's Magnus's promotion tree:
Provision means a city builds settlers essentially for free. I didn't take it in my test game this shot is from because I'm stupid. Anyway, what this means is that we can build a warrior or summat (this bit really isn't necessary, but I like more military units), then CHOP Magnus. Now, I had been underrating Magnus before - I thought he was stupidly powerful and broken, but I thought his ability was ADDITIVE - ie stacking Magnus and Maritime Industries grants you a total of 3x production (+100% +another 100%). But it's not! It's multiplicative! That's even more insane!. So Magnus grants not 3x production on those chops, but 4 times the default production. That means 1-shots of any wonder you want down the road, with the right set up.
So, there are no early +100% policy cards except Maritime Industries, and I don't have a coastal city or I'd consider it. So what we're gonna do is chop either a settler or a military unit (haven't decided yet) with Magus and Provision in place at a city, not for 150% production like I thought, but 300% (2x for Magnus x 1.5 for the production card) production. That will pop out a BUNCH of settlers - for free, essentially! Then in 2 turns, I can do it AGAIN, and 2 turns later, AGAIN, all for no pop loss in the city! We can do this SOON, too!
So let's look at the empire:
Of Course I Still Love You has a ton of jungle that could be chopped, which is a possibility. That jungle will give 75 production/75 food, letting the city grow like a weed while pumping out settlers. Just Read the Instructions has 3 forests (and a deer, which I'd want Magnus for), so that's 4 75 production shots. I'd need 2 builders for that, though.
This is stupid. I can't believe I almost missed this and was considering building settlers the normal way like a scrub. I think you HAVE to do it this way in R&F to remain competitive, or you'll fall behind. So yeah, Magnus is broken and needs to be nerfed, this is no way to play a game. But we're doing it anyway, because, to quote the Once-ler, if we didn't do it, then someone else would!
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Taking notes: We'll do it in 2 waves. Once chopping out of JRTI, once chopping out of OCISTLY, 5 turns apart (naturally). JRTI settles the north, OCISTLY settles the south. We push out to my selected 8 cities, we grab Audience Chamber and thumb our noses at Ancestral Hall because we're done with expansion, more or less, and then turtle hard.
THe danger is if this works TOO well and we get so far ahead we paint a target on ourselves. In that case I'll cross my fingers and hope Archduke or Rowain eats somebody and looks scarier.
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I ran some test games, as Rome (because easy early culture unlocks Magnus much earlier).
With Colonization in place, I found that each chop finished the first settler and didn't quite finish the next one - dropping him down to 3 turns. That's actually just perfect from my perspective, since I need to walk my builder to the next chop site in turn. I think 1 builder with 3 chops and 3 settlers per city is the right way to go. We'll do our first wave in the south, facing Alhambram, then our next wave in the north, facing Japper. Religious goal is still Defender of the Faith, I'll use any spare overflow to start popping out military units, and we'll endeavor to not get overrun.
No wonder Alhambram wanted an early monument...
March 17th, 2018, 17:47
(This post was last modified: March 17th, 2018, 17:52 by Chevalier Mal Fet.)
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Turn 30
Slow day on PBEM 7, so I can give you guys a proper update - even a score report! I need to do that at least once a week, it really does help to monitor the larger game state. For example, I know who Alhambram's neighbor is, which means I know the whole map! Sorta. Still gotta find city-states.
Anyway, let's get right into it.
Score is okay. Notice that the difference between my score and everyone else's is Era score - the important factors like Empire, tech, and civics I'm keeping up in. That will change, though, thanks to Alhambram's awesome culture. I think I worked out where that monument came from - he didn't chop it, he bought it! That's why he has less gold than I do, even though he's had that extra 4 income for 20 turns now - that gives him 80 extra gold so far, plus if he cleared any barb camps (as his era score suggests he has) would get him most of the way to a monument. That might actually be a good move, since you need Early Empire and State Workforce relatively quickly in order to start the Magnus snowball. Hopefully his getting there first won't be too big a factor - if it DOES turn out to matter, well, then the game is broken until either Magnus or Rome is fixed. Rome will be first to Magnus just about every game with free monuments, and from there Trajan will snowball with nearly free settlers exploding out before anyone else can match that. I really don't want this game to come down to "who gets Magnus first, wins" but it might go that way. Anyway. All speculation for now. *
Oh, and Rowain and Alhambram's score both went up by 1 = Rowain is Alhambram's neighbor, and Archduke is opposite me on the map. This is sort of good news, I guess - Rowain can only rush Archduke, who can handle himself, or Alhambram, who I will assist if needed. I think I got about the best distribution of neighbors possible for my purposes.
My turn:
An overview to start. This game seems to be moving slower, but I think that's just because I'm moving slower - the settler took a LONG time. I'm really regretting not going builder first. I feel like my algorithm is precisely backwards - I thought, "Good tiles at home city = no need for improvements yet, build settler," but it's looking like the opposite is true. Good tiles at home city = quick return on builder, you get the settler out pretty quickly. Well, no sense crying over spilt milk, I shall have to make the best of it and remember for next time.
JRTI has a farm up, giving me the Irrigation boost, and next turn I'll have a Quarry for the Masonry boost. That will also give the city a bunch of 5 yield tiles to work. I did NOT improve the deer, because I plan on chopping them twice to fuel the Magnus settler wave. Warrior is due in one turn - as you can see, my military score is lagging somewhat behind Japper (76!) and Alhambram (45). Don't wanna look like an easy target, so the warrior and slinger are very needed. I can always catch up later, if I secure land and security now.
Once the quarry is up I will drop the mercury and work the extra production. I can pick the mercury back up at size 5.
OCISTLY has grown to size 2 and is making money, it will soon grow to size 3! The rice is shooting it up like a weed After the slinger I need 1 builder here to chop out a holy site. Both sites will be helped along with agoge abuse. This will also discount my first Seowon, I think - 2 districts available, 2 placed, no seowons? So I'll only pay 30% on my first Seowon! Very cheap for an automatic +4 science!
Let's look at the local neighborhood. I've found some interesting new possibiliteis to the east. First, a potential sailing city:
Bananas and a jungle hill first ring, more jungle hills, wheat, and stone second ring. Multiple possible Seowon locations, and it lets me build ships, and nets an envoy at Antioch. However, another possibility is settling on the bananas. That gives me a high-food city center, adds another 2nd ring wheat, and opens up a Seowon spot to boost 2 hills. I'm leaning towards the dotted site at the moment, but I'm open to persuasion here. Here's a look in strategic view (which I use most often for planning, since it's easier to see and easier for my computer to run).
In the south, there's a more speculative site, which I've dubbed the southern frontier. This, along with the Western Rice Dot and Antioch, would form my border with Alhambram:
This has chocolate and a jungle hill first ring, with diamonds, more hills, and bananas second ring. Not spectacular, and honestly the spot across the river is probably better, but this is a more defensive city. Alhambram wants rivers, so I want to keep him from settling towards me. This river is the only decent spot between the two of us. He will beat me to Magnus, so I may not get this one.
A strategic view:
Finally, a zoomed out picture showing all 6 of my candidates for the Magnus push:
Frontier Dot in the north is a purely speculative dot which I haven't scouted yet - it's on a river, with wheat and lots of forested hills. The original two dots - First Expansion (lol) and the Rice dot are still there, probably to be grabbed with the settlers from OCISTLY. A lot of the cities lack amenities, but with 4 luxuries in my immediate area I think I should be okay on that front, and my tightly packed cities should make the Colosseum a very valuable wonder to land (and I have some ideas about that, too, also to be filed under "later."). Finally, I still have the TLC Dot placed, but it might be superceded if I find a good spot in the west, which I'm going to check out with this new warrior.
Slinger is scouting towards Japper, Warrior towards the city-state.
*This all makes Emperor's passing on Rome even more insane, BUT to be fair he probably wanted to show off an expansion civ, much like my passing over Scythia. Can't blame him for that, but it's probably not going to work out for him.
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