[Spoilers] RFS-81 - Anubis? More like A-noob-is!

[RFS-81]

I'm just thinking aloud, isn't thinking allowed?



Welcome, lurkers!

In case you're just tuning in now: This is a newbie PBEM with the added twist that we only play civs that have been neglected so far in PBEMs here. For good reasons, in most cases. We're playing vanilla Civ 6 with the free Atzec DLC. Scythia and Sumeria are banned as usual. We play only civs that have been played two times or less, except for Gorgo's Greece because she was deemed too strong. Here's the full list:

• France*
  
• Egypt*
  
• Aztecs
  
• Brazil
  
• Pericles's Greece (aka the bad one)
  
• Gandhi's India
  
• Kongo
  
• Norway
  
• Spain
  
• America**
  

*never played
**played twice

For civ picks, everyone submits a ranked list of four and civs are assigned in reverse turn order. So the last player gets his first pick, then the second-to-last gets the highest available in his list, etc. My list will probably include Egypt, Aztecs, and Pericles's Greece. I've played test games with Aztecs and Egypt so far. I'll write down my thoughts on them in another post shortly.

[shallow_thought]

Cool, a spoiler thread. Just been getting my head back round Civ VI a little over the last couple of days. Don't expect much, but I should, at least, remember that it's builders, not workers, and settlers not colony ships.

It's an ... interesting ... selection. I need to think, but most of these have at least something going for them. Except Norway. In a game where chopping has turned out to be king, Norway suck. Even on a water map.

[RFS-81]

Cleopatra's Egypt

Leader ability: Mediterranean's Bride
Your international trade routes generate +4 gold per turn. International trade routes to your cities generate +2 food for the player sending the trader and 2 gold for you.

Civ ability: Iteru
+15% production towards districts and wonders next to rivers. District and wonder placement is not blocked by floodplains. Note that the placement still has to satisfy all other conditions of the thing you're building. For example, the Oracle must be built on a hill, so you can't build it on floodplains even if you're Egypt.

Unique tile improvement: Sphinx
Unlocked by the Craftsmanship civic. Provides +1 faith and +1 culture, and +2 faith on top of that if next to a wonder. +1 extra culture unlocked by the Natural History civic. Can be built anywhere, including floodplains, but not next to another Sphinx.

Unique unit: Maryannu Chariot Archer
That's a strange one: It replaces the Heavy Chariot, but it counts as a ranged unit, not heavy cavalry and upgrades to Crossbowmen. It's got some impressive stats: 35 ranged attack strength with range 2. That's 10 more than archers. 25 melee strength, only 3 less than the Heavy Chariot. 2 points movement normally, +2 if it starts the turn in open terrain. It costs 120 hammers to build, nearly twice as much as the Heavy Chariot.

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Egypt has never been played before in a PBEM on Realms Beyond, a "distinction" it only shares with France. Nevertheless, it's a contender for the top spot on my list. The reason for that is Iteru. A bonus of 15% is not much, but what I wanted to find out in my test game was if bonuses are additive or multiplicative, and as it turns out, they're multiplicative. What that means is: If you play Egypt, and you adopt the "Monument to the Gods" pantheon belief (+15% prod for Ancient and Classical wonders) and build a wonder on a river, you don't get a 30% bonus. Instead, your production is multiplied by 1.15 * 1.15, which amounts to a bonus of 32%.

Not impressed? I can't blame you, but watch what happens when you add more bonuses: Corvee policy (+15% for Ancient/Classical wonders) and Autocracy government (+10% for wonders). All together, this works out to a bonus of 67%. For comparison, if another civ picks up Monument to the Gods, Corvee and Autocracy, it gets a bonus of 45%. Since Monument to the Gods does not work on Medieval or later wonders, and you want to switch out of Autocracy eventually, it's also interesting what it looks like without it. Corvee also doesn't work for Medieval wonders, but you can pick up a replacement policy for every era.

	With Iteru	Without Iteru
All bonuses	67%	45%
Without pantheon	45%	26%
Without Autocracy	52%	32%
Without both	32%	15%

To be sure, taking all these bonuses has a huge opportunity cost. No Lady of the Reeds and Marches, no Goddess of the Harvest. Autocracy is more suited for military buildup than economy. And then you tie up your single economic policy slot with Corvee. That leaves the wildcard slot for, say, Ilkum or Colonization. And your wonder placement is more constrained. But with no China to compete with, Egypt can be an unrivaled wonder builder. The game plan would be poor man's China: Get all the cool wonders, get a religion with the Divine Inspiration belief (+4 faith from wonders) - the sphinxes help too with faith generation. Then put all that faith to some good use: Maybe take up Jesuit Education to faith-buy science and culture buildings. Or adopt the Theocracy government and pray for an army. Snipe Great People with faith patronage.

EDIT: Jesuit Education and Divine Inspiration are mutually exclusive because both are "follower beliefs".

It's not relevant for this game, but I'm wondering: Could this setup work against China? First off, you'll compete with them for the pantheon and religion beliefs, so a lot depends on if you can get them first. The biggest weakness of Egypt here is that you need chops and stone harvests to finish a wonder in a timely manner, while China just walks its builders into the wonder. At some point, you run out of forests. I think Egypt could build individual wonders faster by lining up multiple chops in one turn, but China is better at building many wonders. It would be interesting to find out. Especially in R&F, with Magnus.

15% bonus to districts is less impressive. It's better to use overflow-chops to build them...if you have anything left to chop, after building that wonder, that is Other district bonuses are rather scarce: There's City Patron Goddess which gives a bonus to every city's first district. But that's a pantheon belief, and I already want a different one. Then there's Veterancy (Military Training civic) for +30% on Encampments, but you need to build an Encampment to get the culture boost for Military Training.

The Sphinx is a decent improvement. You can always get a source of faith on the map and don't have to use the God King policy to get a pantheon, even though it would be quite appropriate for Egypt. The early culture is welcome too. I think they're only really useful next to wonders, but then they're really good.

Mediterranean's Bride seems unimpressive to me. It would be nice to have in a team game, but still not great even then.

That's a lot of words on builder stuff. But how will I make the other players concede? Egypt's unique unit is strong: A more powerful archer that's hard to kill in melee. But it's also pricy. And since it upgrades to crossbows, you can't pre-build any knights. Maybe I could launch an attack with Great General-boosted swords, and a few Maryannu Chariots. They don't receive a bonus from the GG because they're from the Ancient Era, but their movement bonus would let them keep pace with the boosted swords, if the map plays along. The second wave would come with the Theocracy government: Faith-recruited knights, plus crossbows. Another advantage of the Maryannu is that your attacks from city walls have strength 35 as soon as you build one.

I'd like to play another testgame with Egypt, to see how fast I can get the Colosseum, but I also need to check out some other civs. Let's see if I can find the time. At the very least, I still need to check if Maryannu Chariots benefit from the Agoge or Maneuver policy. They're classified as ranged units, not cavalry, so it should be Agoge, but you expect consistency in Civ 6 at your own peril

EDIT: Yep, it's Agoge.

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I'll talk about the Aztecs in my next post. They too seem to be one of the stronger choices, but I had more fun with Egypt.

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

Good luck! Know that I am reading along!

[shallow_thought]

I've never really given Egypt much thought, or taken them for a spin in SP. What you've said is interesting, particularly with no China. Taking Pyramids away from whoever picks Aztecs would be amusing. I do wonder if you can use an early Sphinx to avoid having to run God King as well.

FWIW, my opinion is first priority is to pick something that you want to play. Doesn't necessarily mean the strongest civ, certainly not the safest. But you're committing to weeks or months of this, and you really don't want to get bored!

I found Aztecs fun in SP, But I think they'll be a popular choice.

[RFS-81]

Hi shallow_thought and CMF!

I've never really given Egypt much thought, or taken them for a spin in SP. What you've said is interesting, particularly with no China. Taking Pyramids away from whoever picks Aztecs would be amusing. I do wonder if you can use an early  Sphinx to avoid having to run God King as well.

The trouble with the Sphinx is that it unlocks at Craftsmanship, so you can only build it with your 2nd builder. That's a long time to wait for the pantheon. I don't expect Monument to the Gods to be very popular, but as you said, the Aztec player would very much like to have the pyramids.

FWIW, my opinion is first priority is to pick something that you want to play. Doesn't necessarily mean the strongest civ, certainly not the safest. But you're committing to weeks or months of this, and you really don't want to get bored!

Wise words! I'm not saying that the Aztecs aren't fun, but I liked the Egyptians a bit better.

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Montezuma's Aztecs

Leader ability: Gifts to the Tlatoani
Luxuries give +1 amenity to up to six cities instead of four. Military units get +1 strength for each (unique) luxury resource you own.

Civ ability: Legend of the Five Suns
Can spend builder charges to provide 20% of a district's production cost.

Unique unit: Eagle Warrior
Replaces Warrior. 28 combat strength (vs. 20), 65 (vs 40). Has a (high) chance to enslave defeated units as builders, but that works only on city states and civs, not barbarians.

Uniquie building: Tlachtli
Replaces the Arena. +1 amenities, +2 faith, +1 Great General points. 15 cheaper than the arena. Because you really need to build Entertainment Districts with that luxury bonus!

Apart from the Tlachtli, this is all very good, and I'm surprised that the Aztecs have never been played again after the first PBEM. The Eagle Warriors are the stars of the show. They are as strong (and expensive) as Heavy Chariots, but with their capture ability they can easily recoup their costs. In my test opening, I didn't need to build any builders after the first one for the Craftsmanship boost. Also note that with only two luxuries, they become as strong as the Sumerian War-Cart, and those things seem to be the reason why Sumeria is near-universally banned from the PBEMs here. They're a bit more expensive than the War-Cart, but the War-Cart doesn't make free builders for you! As Ancient Era units, they don't benefit from Great Generals. I wonder if you can get the Crusade belief while Eagle Warriors are still relevant. That's difficult to test playing against the AI, though.

With the high cost of the Eagle Warriors, I wonder if God of the Forge (+25% to Ancient and Classical military units) would be a good idea. I seem to remember that it's generally considered weak, but I don't understand why. Ideally, you build most of your military in the Ancient and Classical Era and then upgrade it with gold. And it lets you get more out of chop overflows. Also: Hello again, multiplicative bonuses!

The bonus amenities are good to have, because multiple copies of a resource do nothing. That is, if you connect, say, two silver resources, you still only get an amenity in four cities. So bumping this number up to six is a big deal. A minor combat bonus is also nice to have.

Spending builder charges to complete districts gives all your captured workers something to do, and you can spend your forest chops on buildings and traders. Or the pyramids. The Aztecs are not great at wonder-building, but +1 builder charge would be huge...if it applies to the Eagle Warriors' captives. If you capture a builder normally, it keeps however many charges it had at the time. The text popup that appears when an Eagle Warrior captures a unit is the same as when you normally capture a builder. If the game internally turns the defeated unit into a builder of its civ and then has you capture it because it's on the same tile as your unit, then you don't want the pyramids. You want to fight whoever has them! Something more I need to test, unless you know, shallow_thought. Also, can Eagle Warriors capture units when defending? It never happened for me, but that might be bad luck.

I don't know if the following counts as a PBEM 7 spoiler, but better safe than sorry:

Given that China's wonder overflow doesn't seem to be working correctly, I should probably be careful not to overflow districts with my builders.

The initial strategy for the Aztecs seems straightforward. Build Eagle Warriors, go conquer city states, get free builders. If you like extra cheese on your tex-mex pizza, you can even farm their units. Militaristic city states make lots of them. But I think it's better to try and conquer them quickly, especially since archers are pretty dangerous. If the archer is in rough terrain and the Eagle Warrior is in the open, he'll take two hits before he can fight back. A Heavy Chariot could hit back faster.

EDIT: Err...I guess that answers my question why the War-Carts are considered overpowered, but not the Eagle Warriors.

What then? I'm not sure how viable an Ancient Era rush is in a game with more than two players. Thanks to the occupation penalty, it won't do you much good to conquer cities without defeating the player completely. If you can pull it off, you're in an excellent position, with roughly twice as many cities as the other players. If not...well, at least you're not going to be completely backwards, since you've got a bunch of builders out of it. Maybe it's better to just harass neighboring players, kill some units, raze cities, soften them up for an attack with more advanced units. You could end up softening them up for someone else, though. Or get them to dogpile you.

[shallow_thought]

Aztecs are potentially strong, but seem quite luck-dependent. You're essentially dependent on having well-placed city states to farm/conquer, and on the capture triggering, to get any advantage. You also have the issue that you don't really want to build (expensive) melee units. Ranged and cavalry are generally better for upgrades. I doubt rushing other players with them is any use - as you say, archers in the hands of a human will probably shred them.

I suspect that there's a bunch you can do against the AI - pick on the one with the Pyramids, keep an EW or two around to the mid-game to last hit - but in MP?

The district building thing is potentially interesting, butI suspect that it is only really relevant if there's a shortage of things to chop/harvest into production boosting cards. I doubt that the ability to fast-build a spaceport is going to matter in a PBEM. It also competes for builder charges with chopping and wanting to get luxuries improved. Still, if you can get enough spare charges from city-states to chop the Pyramids... maybe.


That strength bonus from luxuries could be really good, if there's a nice mix. It's a part of the Aztec kit that works into the late game, with even some mid-game snowball potentitial if you can conquer some land with new luxuries on it. The odd thing is that you again get a conflict - you should be able to delay hooking up luxuries, as you get more city ameneties from them, except that you don't want to delay because of the strength bonus. Still, a wider spread of luxuries is nice.

BTW - you mentioned being away for a bit in June I think? I'm also away for a week - I'll need to look up the exact dates. Other than that I should be able to play a turn or two if necessary. My play window is evening UK time, so 18:00-21:00 UTC until the clocks change, which I think was compatible with yours.

Oh, and I hadn't realised that the Sphinx wasn't available until after Craftsmanship. No use for getting a pantheon then.

Looking forward to your next analysis!

[RFS-81]

BTW - you mentioned being away for a bit in June I think? I'm also away for a week - I'll need to look up the exact dates. Other than that I should be able to play a turn or two if necessary. My play window is evening UK time, so 18:00-21:00 UTC until the clocks change, which I think was compatible with yours.

Yes, I'll be away from 10th to 16th (inclusive), so it's rather more than a turn or two. Would that be possible for you? If not, well, I announced it in the organizing thread and nobody complained, so I hope they won't mind a one-week hiatus too much.

Now, let's have a look at Greece.

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Pericles's Greece

Leader ability: Surrounded by Glory
+5% culture for each city state you're Suzerain of

Civ ability: Plato's Republic
One wildcard policy slot for every government.

Unique unit: Hoplite
Spearman replacement. Same cost (65 ), same strength (25), but gets +10 strength if another Hoplite is next to it (doesn't stack).

Unique district: Acropolis
Theater Square replacement, half cost as usual for unique districts. Must be built on hills. Grants one envoy upon completion. Gets an adjacency bonus of +1 from districts and wonders. Gets another +1 if next to the city center (which also counts as a district).

The best thing here is the additional policy slot: "Do you want to run God King or Urban Planning?" - "Yes." Additional policy slots are always good to have. Greece also has more space to put the wildcard-only Great Person policy cards, which can be good in the early game. This gives Greece a lot of flexibility for picking up early Great People. Maybe Hypathia is the first Great Scientist - slot in Inspiration. Or maybe you want to race for the first Great Prophet or Great General.

Greece can even run those policies in the Chiefdom government. But I doubt that it's worthwhile to interrupt your beeline to Political Philosophy for Mysticism.

Hoplites are anti-cavalry, so they get +10 strength against cavalry, but regular melee units get +10 against them. Once they gain the don't-suck-against-infantry promotion (aka Thrust), tag-teaming Hoplites seem to be a pretty good all-round unit, with strength close to the Swordsman. There's a second level promotion that gives them another bonus against infantry. It used to be the case that anti-cav units didn't have a policy to boost their production, but in the latest pre-R&F patch, this has been fixed.

This is another Ancient Era unit, so, like Eagle Warriors and Maryannu Chariots, they don't benefit from Great Generals. I think I'm seeing a pattern here...As said before, Ancient Era rushes are risky. You pretty much have to defeat your opponent completely to gain anything significant, and the other players will be very happy if you play negative-sum games with your neighbour. Having hoplites should deter early aggression, at least.

Theater Squares don't really seem to feature in multiplayer, and sacrificing a hill till for one doesn't sound like a good deal, even though the Acropolis's adjacency bonuses are easier to get.

Finally, the leader ability seems to be very unimpressive for multiplayer. First off, you don't even know if you actually want to keep the city states around. Scientific ones are great throughout the whole game. Industrial ones not so much. It's better to have an additional city now, than production bonuses when you have your Industrial Zones many turns later, and the +5% culture is not enough to tip the scales. Then, all else being equal, the other players have as many envoys as you, and I don't see myself spamming Acropolises to change that. And they'll want to kill the city states you've suzerained.

The other Greek leader, Gorgo, gets culture for killing units. Learning Political Philosophy from killing barbarians - that's the Spartan way, I guess, and the reason why she's banned from this game.

[shallow_thought]

On a hilly map I can see acropolisisisis being OKish (but people want to try standard age). Skip monuments in later cities, spam them to get discounts on other districts ... but they're a bit latein the tree for either of those. The envoys could be fun if there are city states on the map that people want to keep alive, but I'm guessing at least half will be getting conquered. Particularly if you keep taking suzerainity (is that a word?).


Spare policy slot is definitely sound. Of course, I've only ever tried Gorgo...

And I'm pretty sure that I'm also flying off on holiday on 10 Jun, for a week.

[RFS-81]

My preliminary ranking is
1. Egypt
2. Aztecs
3. Greece

That leaves one spot to fill. I think it's likely that Aztecs and Greece are ranked highly by the other players. If the way bonuses stack is common knowledge, then maybe Egypt, too. So I should think carefully about my fourth pick, but that's a lot of civs to test. So first, some triage.

Nope tier
France: I think this is the weakest civ in the game. I don't care much for spies - in SP, they always get captured whenever I have them do anything interesting, even after gaining sources. Bonus for Medieval to Industrial wonders, when Monument to the Gods is obsolete, so fewer stacking bonuses than Egypt. No economic advantages in the early game. The unique unit seems to be all France has going for it, unless you're aiming for a culture victory in single player.

Spain: I don't like any mechanic that refers to continents. If you happen to be close to some arbitrary line on the map, you get benefits (e.g., the boost for Foreign Trade), if not, you get nothing. Spain gets a bonus to intercontinental trade routes. If you start right on the fault line, that could be most of them, right from the start. If not, you get nothing out of it in the early game. Building Armadas earlier than other players could be huge, depending on the map type, but that's up to the mapmaker's discretion.

Norway: Good for early warfare on island maps, I guess. Not much else.

Probably not tier
America: +5 combat on the home continent. At least that bonus is still good if you start in the middle of the continent. Still, Montezuma can get close to that pretty easily. Late-game culture building. Good Industrial Era unique unit. Still, this civ has been played twice in a PBEM. I probably should check out the spoiler threads to understand what the players are seeing in them, because to me, they seem far from the best among the neglected civs.

Worth having a look at tier
India: I haven't tried India so far, but the Varu looks impressive. I seem to remember that the debuff for surrounding enemies stacks. Stepwells can take care of your housing problems, and gain additional faith if next to a Holy Site. The rest doesn't seem to be particularly relevant.

Kongo: I already tried them in SP, achieving an unimpressive result in Adventure 4. Relevant for multiplayer is their unique swordsman replacement, Ngao Mbeba. It has better ranged defense and is not impeded by jungle or forests. Also, here we finally have an early unique unit that can benefit from a Great General. They also have a neighbourhood replacement called Mbanza that appears at the Guilds civic. This should allow settling dry spots before other players. Oh yes, and they get some types of Great People faster, including Great Merchants.

Brazil: Never played them before. Better at recruiting great people. Commercial hubs, Campuses and Theater Squares get +1 from each adjacent jungle. With that, I might actually leave some flatland jungles standing. It would be great to get the Chichen Itza wonder in the capital, for additional culture and production from the jungles. This assumes a jungle start, of course.

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That's all of them! What's your opinion, shallow_thought? Have you played any of them? Which one should I try first?