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Chevalier Mal Fet · March 22nd, 2018, 15:29

Turn 36

Big turn today. Everything is coming up Korea. jive

Well, I've still got the barb troubles to deal with. But I think I'll be okay! Let's jump right in. First, the mistake from last turn:

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Finishing Craftsmanship is great and all, but I need Discipline to clear out those camps and I need God-King for a few turns more until I grab a pantheon. Fingers crossed for Goddess of the Harvest, with Earth Goddess as a back up. Remember, there's a lot you can buy with faith in R&F - the Monumentality Golden Age dedication allows all civilian units to be purchased with faith extremely cheaply - settlers will be chopped, but I need builders to use Magnus, and traders are great to have. You can also be in perma-Theocracy with the right Government Plaza building. And finally, Valetta lets you faith buy military buildings, walls, and city center buildings. Now walls aren't so great 'cept in emergencies, 'cos you want to chop those for boosts. But faith-buying monuments, granaries, and water mills? Yes, please. Basically, Goddess of the Harvest will double the value of my Magnus chops. I know that Alhambram took Divine Spark, so I've still got a chance. Who else will beat me to a Pantheon? Not sure.

Memo to self: Send a warrior down to find that religious state Alhambram met, for extra faith.

Anyway, the monument finishes, taking me from trailing Alhambram and Japper to leading them in culture. Magnus will be unlocked in 6 turns, which is right on Alhambram's heels, I think. Still need to build a seowon to commence settler chopping, while my other city will build a holy site.

I also met the city-state lurking in the northwest corner, and the news was about as good as it's possible to be:

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Nan Madol, my old friend! This boost culture by another monument, to 7.3, giving me (for the present) the highest rate in the game! I beat Japper here! This makes up for the fiasco with Alhambram in the south - I'll trade him the commercial envoy for this early culture envoy. dancing

Nan Madol can be a great city-state to have. The suzerain boosts all your districts on coasts - and yes, city centers count as districts. It's the equivalent of the Roman free monument for coastal cities, in other words, and it scales well as long as your districts are built next to water. It's a very geographically dependent bonus - the perfect complement to England, but not so great for me now. The quest is easy - build a galley - and dropping another envoy if I have one to spare wouldn't go amiss for the bit of extra culture at Another Fine Product's planned location, but Valetta is the higher priority right now.

At the barb front, I'm ready to start working on that barb camp:

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I've killed one barb this game, and cleared no camps yet. These two camps will be worth 6 era score, and the Seowon will be worth another 4. That would keep me out of a Dark age, which I'm not sure I want - I really want to experiment with a Heroic medieval age, right as warring usually gets going in earnest. Well, let's let the game play out and see what happens.

I roll really well and actually hurt the spearman more than he hurts me:
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Lucky!

This is why I hope no one takes my whining about the map or Alhambram's scouting choices ( Argh

) too seriously. In the long run, your luck balances out - you miss an easy city-state because of turn order, but you find an even better one a little later. You become perhaps the sole player to miss out on a Natural Wonder era score, but you also have some combats break your way. It's fun to whine, though, so I indulge myself.

Here's the Korean northwest:
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It's dry as a bone, for one, with Valetta and Nan Madol the only interesting features. No settlements up here. The warrior at Nan Madol can now swing south and join up with the warrior clearing the camp, although he may not need the help. Then, the two will join up and march east, to support the slingers, push back the incoming barb wave there, and clear THAT camp. I think I'm good on military, in other words, and can prioritize builders, districts, and other buildings.

Here's the core:

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I purchase a trader next turn, 2 gold short this round (Alhambram! Argh

). Traders can't be boosted with production cards, so there's no inefficiency in purchases. I hate rush-buying builders before Serfdom, though. I started a granary at JRTI, but I'm not sure on that yet. I will hit the growth penalty next size, and I want to keep growing upwards. A builder, though, would have to wait for Magnus to be useful, or I'll feel wasteful, and he's still 11 turns out (6 to recruit, 5 to establish). Placing a holy site would demolish a forest, and I'd much rather Magnus-chop that forest into the Holy Site.

Chops give 33% of a district cost, Magnus takes it to 66%, so if I funnel it through an agoge warrior or slinger (I do need one more) that's 100% of a district right there, or a Seowon + 50% of a holy site. Another chop would give me both districts very rapidly...hmmm...Might be something to think about. I need to finish a district for Valetta and for State Workforce (Magnus's first promotion), so I think that might be the route I go: Chop slinger - Seowon - Holy site, Chop rest of holy site - overflow into something useful (Shrine? Granary? More units?), then take Magnus's first promotion and start chopping settlers. That does mean passing on the discount on my first Holy Site, but if I finish a Seowon at OCISLY I can get my second.

OR! OR! I chop a seowon on the SAME round! Except I need to finish a tech...Hm. Well, I'll figure it out. Let's plan on 2 quick districts, then settlers everywhere. We rush DOTF, then turtle up to victory. If we lose out on DOTF, we take, ah, something else and keep a larger miltiary around.

Chevalier Mal Fet · March 22nd, 2018, 15:41

I can't chop jungle til Bronze Working, duh, Chevalier.

Okay, so no chopping for a bit at OCISLY. Need to murder some more barbs, and Bronze Working is my next target...

...which unlocks Encampments, meaning I need a third district down before I get a discount. Shitballs.

Fine. Original plan it is. Seowon CHOP -> Holy site CHOP -> Something useful, OCISLY cools its heels until Bronze Working, then Seowon -> Holy Site discounted yay! I think! Maybe not, because I've already got one. Damn. Either way, though, original plan it is.

Chevalier Mal Fet

I have some time waiting for PBEM7 to come in, so a score report:

Total population:
Chev - 7 in 2 cities
Alhambram - 5 in 2 cities
Emperor - 5 in 2 cities
Archduke - 7 in 2 cities
Rowain - 3 in 1 city + 1 settler
Japper - 7 in 1 city

Japper is building up his capital first, it seems - is he going to wait until he unlocks the Ancestral Hall before he builds a settler? : huh

I think he's still in better shape than Rowain, though, who has fallen to 4 pop counting his settler on the map - Rowain seems to have gone war cart first, then cleared a bunch of barbs nearby. Alhambram has a DOF with him (signed last turn) so his likely target must be Archduke...who is bottom of the score on military at the moment. But early military is cheap, and just a handful of units swing it one way or the other. Japper has a DOF with Emperor, too, so the only war you'll find will be with Mongolia over on the far side of the map.

I'm feeling better about my slow start - I have the highest pop in the game, and a good gold income. Culture MIGHT be highest in the game, but Rowain could be beating me with a monument in his city and a culture state - he actually almost certainly must have a culture state to have finished 4 civics already. Which ones, though? His empire score is low, so he didn't get a boost on early empire, and he has no districts down, so he also would have had to hard research state workforce. He has Code of Laws, Foreign Trade, and Craftsmanship...Oh, so he probably grabbed Military Tradition or Mysticism. Probably military tradition, given his era score and his war cart's ability to clear barb outposts. Which means he DOESN'T have Magnus yet. Hooray, no one does! :D That's good news. Science is or could be tops in the game - I have the mercury unused, since the one beaker matters less than production right now, don't need more techs.

I was late to a monument, but my late second city hasn't mattered much as it's growing like a weed - good call on teh rice tile, skanar! Score is great in all the relevant categories - I lag in era score but who gives a damn? I will get my two early districts out, then chop settlers. :D Things are looking good.

Ichabod · March 22nd, 2018, 16:55

(March 22nd, 2018, 16:35)Chevalier Mal Fet Wrote: Things are looking good.

Not sounding very confident there. lol

Chevalier Mal Fet · March 22nd, 2018, 17:20

Woah, weird, that wasn't visible in my text box when i typed! I had some trouble with the emoticon earlier, the interface apparently hid it.

I'm not very good with tech, as you can tell from my constant typos and bugs in my reports. lol

aetryn · March 22nd, 2018, 18:28

On and off lurker here finally prompted to post to say I really like your reporting style - it's both entertaining and has excellent information. I'm spoiled on PBEM7, but I thought I'd stay unspoiled on this one and maybe post some to see what that's like if you're okay with it. I'm not sure I'll have anything useful to say, as I don't consider myself a very good player, but I do have R&F.

Have you thought about what legacy government card you want, or are those basically going to be irrelevant in a close multiplayer match?

Chevalier Mal Fet · March 22nd, 2018, 19:42

(March 22nd, 2018, 18:28)aetryn Wrote: On and off lurker here finally prompted to post to say I really like your reporting style - it's both entertaining and has excellent information. I'm spoiled on PBEM7, but I thought I'd stay unspoiled on this one and maybe post some to see what that's like if you're okay with it. I'm not sure I'll have anything useful to say, as I don't consider myself a very good player, but I do have R&F.

Have you thought about what legacy government card you want, or are those basically going to be irrelevant in a close multiplayer match?

Thank you! That's great to hear - I try to write the sort of reports that I would enjoy reading.

You are more than welcome to come aboard and ride along with me - the more the merrier, I think. The thread gets lonely if it's just me watching the view counter tick up, after all. And no worries about abilities - you've read my reports, so you know that I'm no great shakes at this game myself. I just try to make my mistakes out in public so's I don't make them again. I've got myself into quite a pickle in the other game, but I think I can put in a better showing here.

As for legacy cards...ah, yes. <_< Those are totally a thing which I am aware of and have plotted an intricate (but brilliant) strategy around which I unfortunately cannot share just yet. For, er, security reasons. Yes. >_>

please excuse me while I go to the wiki to remind myself what government legacy cards are available

aetryn

(March 22nd, 2018, 15:41)Chevalier Mal Fet Wrote: I can't chop jungle til Bronze Working, duh, Chevalier.

Okay, so no chopping for a bit at OCISLY. Need to murder some more barbs, and Bronze Working is my next target...

...which unlocks Encampments, meaning I need a third district down before I get a discount. Shitballs.

Fine. Original plan it is. Seowon CHOP -> Holy site CHOP -> Something useful, OCISLY cools its heels until Bronze Working, then Seowon -> Holy Site discounted yay! I think! Maybe not, because I've already got one. Damn. Either way, though, original plan it is.

In that case, C would be 3 (Holy Site + 2 Seowons), A would be 3 (Holy Site, Seowon, Encampment), and P would be one for Holy Sites. To get the discount C/A > P must apply, and 3/3 isn't greater than 1, so if I'm reading the formula right, no discount applies. Also, does the Government district count toward A even though you can only build one? If it did, then (assuming you've reached State Workforce by then), A would actually be 4 and you wouldn't be eligible for the discount.

... Okay, I went off and ran some tests from a fairly early game save from a game I was recently playing. In all cases I had Government, Campus, Holy Site, Harbour, Theatre Square, and Encampment unlocked (so A is either 5 or 6 depending on whether Government counts). This was an Australia game with Auckland right on my doorstep and a bunch of fish in reefs, which explains the early harbours. In all cases I completed a tech after building the last district and before checking for the discount.
With 2 Harbours, 2 Campuses, and 1 Holy Site, I did NOT get a discount building an Encampment.
With 2 Harbours, 2 Campuses, 1 Holy Site, and 1 Government Plaza built, I DID get the discount building an Encampment.

I wanted to run an example with 6 districts without the Government Plaza built, but city size and production (and the impossibility of dodging unlocking Entertainment Districts) made that very difficult. Nonetheless I think these examples answer the question. The first example shows that A must be >5, so Government counts toward A. The second example shows that A and C must both be 6, so Government Plazas count toward C as well.

So basically, make sure you take into account when State Property is completed and when your Government Plaza completes when planning district discounts.

Chevalier Mal Fet · March 23rd, 2018, 07:25

(March 23rd, 2018, 00:47)aetryn Wrote:
(March 22nd, 2018, 15:41)Chevalier Mal Fet Wrote: I can't chop jungle til Bronze Working, duh, Chevalier.

Okay, so no chopping for a bit at OCISLY. Need to murder some more barbs, and Bronze Working is my next target...

...which unlocks Encampments, meaning I need a third district down before I get a discount. Shitballs.

Fine. Original plan it is. Seowon CHOP -> Holy site CHOP -> Something useful, OCISLY cools its heels until Bronze Working, then Seowon -> Holy Site discounted yay! I think! Maybe not, because I've already got one. Damn. Either way, though, original plan it is.

In that case, C would be 3 (Holy Site + 2 Seowons), A would be 3 (Holy Site, Seowon, Encampment), and P would be one for Holy Sites. To get the discount C/A > P must apply, and 3/3 isn't greater than 1, so if I'm reading the formula right, no discount applies. Also, does the Government district count toward A even though you can only build one? If it did, then (assuming you've reached State Workforce by then), A would actually be 4 and you wouldn't be eligible for the discount.

... Okay, I went off and ran some tests from a fairly early game save from a game I was recently playing. In all cases I had Government, Campus, Holy Site, Harbour, Theatre Square, and Encampment unlocked (so A is either 5 or 6 depending on whether Government counts). This was an Australia game with Auckland right on my doorstep and a bunch of fish in reefs, which explains the early harbours. In all cases I completed a tech after building the last district and before checking for the discount.
With 2 Harbours, 2 Campuses, and 1 Holy Site, I did NOT get a discount building an Encampment.
With 2 Harbours, 2 Campuses, 1 Holy Site, and 1 Government Plaza built, I DID get the discount building an Encampment.

I wanted to run an example with 6 districts without the Government Plaza built, but city size and production (and the impossibility of dodging unlocking Entertainment Districts) made that very difficult. Nonetheless I think these examples answer the question. The first example shows that A must be >5, so Government counts toward A. The second example shows that A and C must both be 6, so Government Plazas count toward C as well.

So basically, make sure you take into account when State Property is completed and when your Government Plaza completes when planning district discounts.

I totally forgot that the Plaza unlocks at State Workforce and not Political Philosophy - PP is what unlocks the first tier buildings, of course.

As I understand it, then, I'll inevitably have 4 district types unlocked: The Plaza, the Seowon, and Holy Sites/Encampments. Once I have four districts built, then, provided I haven't unlocked Commercial Hubs, then my fifth district will be discounted. I need to start planning districts for my cities - I have 2 good commercial hub spots, possibly three depending on the terrain I Blame the Parents, and I'm not sure how many Holy Sites I'll need. If I land Choral Music, a lot, since those double as culture-generating sites, and I don't have to compete with campuses for mountain adjacencies.

Ideally every city gets a Seowon. Commercial Hubs aren't as good as they used to be - trade routes are awesome, but are they worth paying the production cost of a market? Ultimately, yes, but it takes longer to pay for that now. Might be counterable with Magnus. If I decide to go the Magnus route, then ideally every city has a CH for at least one trade route. There are 4 or 5 good holy site adjacencies, I'll only need ~2 Entertainment complexes/Industrial Zones to cover my whole civ with my tight dot map, theater squares seem like a waste but one might be useful next to the Plaza to pick up some eurekas/inspirations down the road, and harbors I might skip unless I really want to take advantage of Nan Madol, but Lighthouses are expensive and CHs seem strictly better in terms of money generation. I can work backwards from this count to budget out population to cities, and know how much pop I'll need. One of my goals for improvement in this game is to manage population growth/housing much better - in single player I typically ignore it until the game sends me a notification that half my people are living in squalid slums and tenements because there's no more housing to be had and could I PLEASE lift the housing cap? In other words, I'm the San Francisco city government writ large.

Legacy bonuses! So, this is worth a dive on its own. Governments and their legacies are reworked in R&F, doing away with the useless points system that never mattered and replacing the legacy system with a much more interesting set of legacy cards, which you can use to keep the benefits of a governent all game long if you want, or to effectively run two governments at once - at the cost of a wild card slot (I believe). Let's take a look:

Government Era	Military	Economic	Blended
Classical	Autocracy: 1 to all yields for each government building and Palace in a city. +10% Production toward Wonders.	Classical Republic: All cities with a districtreceive +1 Housing and +1 Amenity. +15% Great Person points.	Oligarchy: All land melee, anti-cavalry, and naval melee class units gain +4 Combat Strength. +20% Unit Experience.
Medieval	Monarchy: +1 Housing per level of Walls. +50% Influence Points.	Merchant Republic: +10% Gold in all cities with an established Governor. +15% Production toward Districts.	Theocracy: +5 Religious Strength in Theological Combat. +.5 Faith per Citizen in cities with Governors. 15% Discount on Purchases with Faith.
Modern	Fascism: All units gain +4 Combat Strength. War Weariness reduced by 15%. +20% Production toward Units.	Democracy: +2 Production, +1 Housing per District. 25% Discount on Purchases with Gold.	Communism: +0.4 Productionper Citizen in cities with Governors. +10% Production.

Couple of changes from vanilla. Taking them point by point -

Autocracy also gives buffs for the Government Plaza building in addition to the palace, a slight buff
Classical Republic now also gives housing in addition to the amenity, very nice
Oligarchy applies to ALL melee units - cavalry and ships included!
Merchant Republic no longer gives trade routes, and only boosts governed cities (nice sync with Korea)
Monarchy rewards all levels of wall now, not just medieval, and gives a much bigger boost to influence generation.
Theocracy now buffs faith generation and religious combat - it does NOT let you buy units with faith. That's the Grand Master's Chapel now.
Communism now buffs production in governed cities. The weird shooty IZs are gone (Good bye, Red October Tractor Factory...)
Democracy buffs districts a lot.
Fascism also reduces war weariness now.

So, almost all governments got buffed, except Merchant Republic. Theocracy's ability got moved, so I think it's better than it was in vanilla since you can have both!

The Legacy cards give only the FIRST bonus from each government, I think. So Autocratic Legacy gives boosted yields at the capital and at your Government Plaza, but NOT wonder production. Oligarchic boosts your melee units, but NOT XP gain, etc.

Looking at them, a lot are good situational buffs that I should have been paying more attention to in SP, but I'm not sure how useful they'll be in multiplayer - not that they're bad, just that the demand for slots is so much higher that it's hard to have everythign you want. Oligarchic Legacy, of course, is a must-have in times of war, and I'll definitely keep that one in mind. Republican Legacy is like Insulae and Liberalism combined, so that might be nice to have if you find yourself in a crunch. Ditto Monarchy. Merchant legacy could be good - a straight 10% gold boost from up to 6 cities? Need to see how it stacks up with triangular trade, but it does lessen the dependence on trade routes. Needs some number crunching at the time of. Theocracy won't be useful at the cost of a policy slot, and we likely won't see the modern governments.

So, must-haves: Oligarchic legacy in times of war.
Gotta run the numbers: Merchant legacy, to see if it pays off more than others.
Situational: Monarchic and Republican legacy (Republican seems almost strictly better, since most cities will have at least 1 district and only 1 level of walls).
Probably not: Autocratic & Theocratic legacies. Not worth a policy slot.

aetryn

If Oligarchic legacy is a must-have, you'll want to take that into consideration so you're in the right government when you finish the Audience Chamber. Just another small detail to keep in mind. The nice thing about favoring the Audience Chamber over the Ancestral Hall is that it's not necessary to slam it down as soon as it becomes available. You'll likely want the Housing bonus relatively soon, but it's not like Ancestral Hall in that you probably want it before settler 3, and so must be rushed. This gives you some flexibility on when to actually place the Government Plaza - which, incidentally, does take up a city district slot. If you want Government Plaza, Seowon, and Holy Site all at JRTI, it will have to be size 7 for that. It does net you 2 Governor titles though - one for the Plaza, and one for the Audience Chamber itself. What are your current plans for when to slot this district in?

Also, since the legacy cards only unlock when you build the appropriate tier building in the Government Plaza, you probably aren't getting 2 Tier 1 Government ones unless you skip a Tier 2 government one. Given that Monarchy typically gets unlocked earlier than the others, though, Monarchy and Republican legacies might be the only options unless you want to delay your Grand Master's Chapel.

Is Autocracy +1 yields for the Government Plaza district, +1 for each Government Plaza building, or both? I tend to read it as the second, but I haven't actually checked this one.

One last thought - do the doubled Magnus harvest yields also give bonus faith for Goddess of the Harvest yikes

?

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