[Spoilers] Suboptimal - Welcome to the Tlachtli of Blunders!

[suboptimal]

I ran some numbers on God King vs. Urban Planning during my lunch break. Urban Planning generally speeds up builds after the first by 1-2 turns depending on how the numbers fall. The other thing that shakes out of the number crunching is that getting God of the Forge as a pantheon or hard-researching Craftsmanship after Code of Laws does nothing to speed up initial builds as they'd both arrive in the late 30's when the settler would be built.

Questions:

- Is the 1-2 turn gain in time worth skipping getting a pantheon in the late 30's?
- Is it worth delaying the pantheon anyway, in case the target city-state has resources that change the pantheon decision?
- Is it worth going production over early fast growth to save 1-2 turns in the builds?

[TheArchduke]

Nope.

Because longterm the pantheons with +1 on plantations or pastures are way too strong.

[suboptimal]

Played two more starts last night as Aztecs, both didn't go well. One start was barbarian central and I had a full barb force follow my 3rd EW up to the city-state (didn't take the CS, lost all my units). In the 2nd the target city state (Kabul) cranked out several units to go deal with a barbarian camp that was 6 tiles away (took the CS on Turn 45). Good to learn some pitfalls and need to refine things a little bit (like staying far enough away long enough to avoid unit recall).

Civ picks going to Emperor K: Aztecs, Kongo, France, India. Don't expect my picks to get to India.

[TheArchduke]

Looking forward to this.

[suboptimal]

I am too, if only to get back into a PBEM.

Going to run a couple more tests with the Aztecs to re-check the AI's perimeter and one or two other things. I figure that the Aztecs will be in high demand and that it's likely I wind up with Kongo...I'll take my time deep-diving them as it'll be three weeks or so to get beyond the initial exploration phase.

[suboptimal]

So, this happened...

Here is the teams and turn order.

Player              id     turn     pick
RFS-81              1         2     Egypt
Japper               2         3     Kongo
rho21                3         4     Greece
suboptimal        4         1      Aztecs

So suboptimal - > RFS-81 -> Japper -> rho21 is the turn order. Nobody had duplicate first picks.
Going to try and get the map done in the next few hours for the lurkers to take a peek at.

Everyone got their first picks?  Interesting.  I wonder how this is going to shake out. 

I'll have some more updates and thoughts later.

[suboptimal]

Alrighty then.  Civ picks have been revealed.  RFS-81 as Egypt, Japper reprising Kongo and rho21 playing Pericles.  Somehow those were all first picks, so this should be interesting, to say the least.  Predictions:

- rho21 will make a run at the early Great General, toss together swords, hoplites and archers and attempt to kill a neighbor
- RFS-81 will found the first religion and find it impossible to scratch-build Knights
- Japper will turtle and attempt a cultural victory

One real risk here is a religious victory.  Japper can’t found a religion but it’s in his interest to have one spread through his territory.  Rho21 doesn’t need one (nor do I) while RFS-81 has the lone civ with some available faith bonuses.  I think a late religion for the Aztecs may be in order, particularly if I can capture a religious city-state with an intact Holy Site.

Regarding my intended strategy…

- City-state conquest generally leaves all of the attacking units redlined, barring any promotions earned during the attack.

- Taking a turn to move the settler onto a luxury resource is big.  That +1 combat strength allows Eagle Warriors to two-shot spears, slingers and warriors (as opposed to needing three hits).  The question is whether or not taking two turns in MP is viable to get onto, say, Cocoa or Truffles.

- A city-state that can be besieged by two Eagle Warriors can be taken by just those two units in some cases.

- Using the first two Eagle Warriors to kill a unit of the target city-state before the actual conquest is usually a good idea. A captured Builder can usually make a run for it back to the capital (at least as far as barbs are concerned), the warriors are a bit closer to a promotion and they can heal while the 3rd warrior makes its way down.

- There’s a “bug” of sorts in city-capture with Eagle Warriors.  If there is a garrisoned unit and a Builder in the city and the garrisoned unit would be captured by an Eagle Warrior then both units are destroyed upon city capture.  If the capture chance fails then the Builder survives the city capture.  This is probably a side effect of the stacking rules.

- I’ve generally found that with a build order of Eagle Warrior → Eagle Warrior → Slinger → Settler it’s usually a good idea, for force protection and general power numbers, to buy the settler’s escort unit a turn or two before the settler completes. Otherwise a 2nd slinger needs to get built before the settler to avoid a poach in MP.

- Initial district builds will be 2x Campus if there are mountains around, otherwise 2x Encampments.

Further questions to ponder:

- Once the Craftsmanship inspiration is in what’s the better use of early builders – make further improvements, charge a district, particularly if it’s a Campus, or chop-overflow into the district?  Numerically a chop-overflow will be more efficient than a charge but that doesn’t consider the time/opportunity cost, particularly with getting the State Property inspiration.

- Still haven’t checked if City Patron Goddess modifies the builder charges.

- If a scientific or commercial city-state is the only viable target should it be taken? I’m thinking yes, and definitely with a scientific city-state if I don’t have any good Campus locations.

- If an opponent’s scout or warrior shows up within attack range of two Eagle Warriors is it worth attacking for the potential Builder despite any meta?  I think so, given that it would potentially get me an extra builder and me declaring war on people given my PBEM history would be a little mind-bending.

[TheArchduke]

Japper as Kongo, hmmm, probably a reprise of PBEM #7, you might inform yourself a bit there, keep it spoilered for me, though.
Egypt is an odd pick. Maybe aiming for wonders without the obvious builders for it around?
Rho21 takes Perciles with his atrocious ability which is overshadowed by Gorgo. Still the early Great Person Card is a valid play. Let´s hope it is early religion, probably GG though, I agree.

Initial strategy.

Good point on the luxury settle, had not thought of that, might be an idea if we get something like a jade or dyes or something else worth settling on just for the yield.

So EW->EW->Slinger->Settler

Sounds very good. But did I understand you right, you want to buy a unit? I would not recommend that.

2x Campus or 2x Encampments sounds good.

I would charge up a district for the inspiration, else overflow chop, too powerful. I would keep charging up a district for those cities who can not chop very well like missing tiles and not on the coast.

All CS are valid targets to be taken. The early jump from a productive city vastly outweighs its possible usefulness especially as others will compete with you for them.

It really depends on the terrain, a tundra/iceball city which is a science or commerce CS is worth to keep around.

If a player controlled scout encounters your EWs kill it early and kill it good, a builder is a builder.:D

[suboptimal]

So EW->EW->Slinger->Settler

Sounds very good. But did I understand you right, you want to buy a unit? I would not recommend that.

My experience has been that I need a second slinger out of the capital to escort the settler, either due to barbarians or I'd be concerned about a poach.  To be quick about it I've generally bought the second slinger in those games where I've had around 10 GPT income, otherwise I've pushed the settler back and scratch built.  I suppose scratch-building the second slinger might let me get Colonization slotted for the settler if I manage civics correctly....

The turn timing has generally run:

1st EW: T15
2nd EW: T24
Slinger: T27
Settler: T35

City-State Capture: T32 - T38, dependent upon terrain between CS and capital

With food-poor starts (say, all plains) these turn times get pushed back 4-5 turns, but these should hold for a typical PBEM-balanced start.

Barbs generally show up at the capital in the T25 - T30 range, so the first slinger spends its time plinking away getting a promotion, the archery & BW eurekas and clearing the invasion.  They will just walk away if left alone for about 10 turns or so, but that's not a good idea.  However, if a unit leaves the city they will chase & attack.  It's also too far (and the units are in no shape) to get an Eagle Warrior back to the capital in time for escort duty.  I suppose delaying the settler by 3-4 turns doesn't hurt too much unless a neighbor pays a not-so-friendly visit.

[Emperor K]

Your start!

To be clear there are 8 city states, and this is a tiny map.

Good luck!