Woden's and Chevalier Mal Fet's [Insert Clever Name Here] Team Thread

[rho21]

I believe it's whatever the smallest number of round trips is to make the route last at least 20 turns.
The CQUI mod does a good job here, telling you exactly how long the trade route will last without any thought or memory required. I'd recommend playing with that mod if you can, it fixes so many UI issues.

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

CQUI unfortunately still isn't working properly with R&F, at least last I checked last week or so. If I load up a game I started with CQUI, the city-state interface is bugged out and I can't interact with any envoys or declare war or anything. If I load up a game that I started in vanilla and enable CQUI, the research meters collapse into nothingness, which is fine until you finish a tech or civic, which causes a CTD.

Woden, I was just thinking that I might make better use of the tundra city than Nubia - although I forgot about your bonus with strategic resources, so maybe it would be a better Nubian city. I could establish a Dockyard and use it to source another trader/be another source of shipbuilding, neither of which I could do with the northern city.

My issue with focusing on infrastructure in new cities is the staggering cost of districts at this time and the short timeframe anything has to pay off. The game probably has ~50-100 turns left in it, which means the lighthouses have to pay off quickly. Units remain relatively cheap and useful, though. It seems like a new city can contribute that way, while investing the time in infrastructure is just not going to give a good ROI in the time remaining.

[rho21]

I have no problems in vanilla with CQUI. Are you using the Steam workshop or installing the files directly?

[suboptimal]

The problem is whether or not R&F is enabled in-game. I believe R&F changes the city banners and other UI interfaces even when playing a game under Vanilla rules and this messes with the mod. The only way I could get CQUI to work with R&F installed is to disable the expansion via the additional content menu. I had the same issue as CMF while getting ready to PBEM 10. I also don't recall whether or not this method worked with pre-R&F saves.

[Woden]

CQUI unfortunately still isn't working properly with R&F, at least last I checked last week or so. If I load up a game I started with CQUI, the city-state interface is bugged out and I can't interact with any envoys or declare war or anything. If I load up a game that I started in vanilla and enable CQUI, the research meters collapse into nothingness, which is fine until you finish a tech or civic, which causes a CTD.

Woden, I was just thinking that I might make better use of the tundra city than Nubia - although I forgot about your bonus with strategic resources, so maybe it would be a better Nubian city. I could establish a Dockyard and use it to source another trader/be another source of shipbuilding, neither of which I could do with the northern city.

My issue with focusing on infrastructure in new cities is the staggering cost of districts at this time and the short timeframe anything has to pay off. The game probably has ~50-100 turns left in it, which means the lighthouses have to pay off quickly. Units remain relatively cheap and useful, though. It seems like a new city can contribute that way, while investing the time in infrastructure is just not going to give a good ROI in the time remaining.

I agree and will send the tundra southern city when I finish off Cornflakes. It will provide you with a second iron and niter.

IMO, since RND are half cost, you can chop into walls while running limes and get enough production to finish the district and most of the lighthouse. Chops equal 1/3 district costs, 2/3 with limes, lots of overflow into the lighthouse. Lighthouses provide +1 and 1 housing plus +1 to all water tiles. This is a good investment.

Maybe I am wrong but I have a feeling this game is going to go at least another 100 turns. Soon the weak civs will be out and all remaining civs are about equal. And by equal I mean the defender's advantage is equal to any attackers strength (if that makes sense). I guess I could be wrong but I don't see any major advantage any team has right now over the others. Rome/China have a stronger army but we can produce units quicker, have the defender's advantage, and have the GG and GAs. Germany/Russia have the best science but weakest armies. We will land the VA but don't have the income right now for massive upgrades. Everything is about equal.

[Woden]

I was planning on sending this guy to Traueret for the road but decided on Nu-Kandy to get a road in that direction plus the food yield was better and the trader will only take 1 round trip for 24 turns versus 2 round trips to Traueret for 36 turns. This way I can get a different trade route going sooner. 

I apologize if this is obvious or common knowledge, but where do you get the information from that he will only make one round trip to Nu-Kandy and two to Traueret?
I have no idea how long trade routes go and the closest I have gotten in my head was that the trader makes two round trips. I assume there is some cut-off point for that?
Just really looking to learn here, as that's one aspect that has been puzzling me.

It is not common knowledge, so don't feel bad about not know it. The game doesn't give you the duration of a trade but only the length of a one-way trip. There are formulas in the formula thread at CivFantics: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/f...ad.600534/

Here is a screenshot of the trader screen



The numbers next to the destination are the length of a one-way trip. Nu-Kandy has a length of 12 and Traueret has a length of 9. Trade routes have to end in the city they start, so a round trip duration is the length time 2. So, the durations are 24 and 18 turns for Nu-Kandy and Traueret, respectively. The quick and dirty way is, as rho21 stated, is that a trade route must be greater than 20 turns, so Nu-Kandy's trade route is good for 1 trip but Traueret's trade route must take a second round trip to meet the 20 turns requirement, so its duration becomes 36 turns.

One note here is that the trade route must be greater than 20 turns, therefore a trade route with a length of 10 will need 2 round trips and take 40 turns but a trade route with length of 11 will only take 1 trip for a duration 22 turns. Trade routes with lengths of 6 and 11 will be the shortest and 5 and 10 are some of the longest durations (unless you send something with a really long length, i.e. >20 length) The nice thing with using the CQUI is that it gives you the duration. I wish the standard UI would give you the duration instead of the length but I guess that is too much to ask.

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

Turn 115

I am so, so glad that the production I chopped into the VA didn't process until this turn. If I'd chopped the other way around - slinger first and then wonder - well, it'd be a totally different game today. 

Bottom line of today's update? 

Sullla and Singaboy said yes:




Awesome. Oh, and I finished the Venetian Arsenal, which should still be nerfed on any map that's not Pangaea:




Double awesome. 

Okay, before I dive into the rest of my turn, let me dive some more into why my civ is struggling and what I need to do to fix it. I apologize if this is repetitive, guys, but it's been running back and forth in my mind anytime I think about this game for about the last two or three weeks now. I write what's in my head, and what's in my head is that I'm in a pickle.

Why am I struggling? Culture is competitive, but science is less than half of Archduke and Sullla, and it takes my civ forever to produce anything. I have gold income, but it's insufficient when split between both me and Woden - I can't maintain two armies with just one civ's worth of gold. Okay, why don't I have any science? Well, I have only one campus and one library. I thought I could replace that with the Geneva economy, but that did not scale as much as I hoped, because it was harder to scrape up new trade routes. Why was it hard to build more Commercial Hubs/Campuses? Because districts are so damn expensive and my cities are so damn small. 

So the fundamental problem is that my civilization is too small to compete with big boys like Sullla and the Archduke. Woden's doing better than I am, I rate him at pretty near their level, especially when factoring in all of Archduke's extra districts, but he also had to fight Cornflakes singlehanded because I didn't have the gold to participate. I had few cities (6) for a long time, and they were stagnant at sizes 4 and 5 for too long. Okay, next step. Why were my cities stagnant? Because I didn't found them on freshwater and I didn't build housing quickly enough. 

Here, I think, I can defend my performance a little better. There is exactly one freshwater spot in my immediate area that I have yet to settle on - the head of the river, because Woden pinned a city there a while ago to build a pyramid on the nearby desert. I should have asked about it sooner, but I forgot about it. Apart from Salamis and Aboukir, all my cities have had to be settled on the coast, where they have struggled to grow. Permit me, if you will, a few moments to whine - evryone else got lots of lakes! Sullla, Japper, Singaboy, and Archduke all planted most of their cities on the lake tiles that form canals. Emperor did that, as well, and has lots of rivers and lakes. I have lake Malta - which is mostly a useless desert. That's the root of a lot of my problems. Honestly, if I had the canals that everyone else does (except Woden and Emperor because of their settling pattern), I could transfer my huge southern navy into the Roman sea and have no difficulties facing down Sullla's handful of ships and attacking hsi canal cities. Instead, I have a really long voyage around entire continents to get those ships anywhere useful - and from the geography of my continent, it's the main place I have to build ships. 

This does not excuse my own failures. I could have been pushing settlers. I did not. I could have built granaries and aqueducts. I chose not to. I could have slapped down two more campuses long ago. I failed in this as well. I have made many, many errors to reach my present state, it is NOT the map's fault. 

Okay, so how do I solve these problems? The VA, by doubling shipbuilding, keeps me in striking distance. Woden can handle the land war, especially with the other team allied with us (I still lean twoards the Archduke and away from Sullla, but that might be because of habit. We need to evaluate down the road). The main way that I will lose will be when Sullla/Archduke/whoever reaches Battleships ahead of me, upgrades, and blasts my outdated navy out of the water, Great Admiral or no Great Admiral. So what do I have? Time. 

I need to make use of time to fix my fundamental problem: I need to grow my cities until I can build districts at a reasonable time again. I need to lock in at least 2 campuses, maybe even three, and I need to work on housing. I need to get gold generation high enough to make use of my science/culture rates. So, gameplan is granaries, aqueduct,s campuses, and harbors/commercial hubs. Builders to chop. Ships to BE chopped. Everything else is a luxury. If I work feverishly, and do it right, maybe in 30 turns I'll have completed a renaissance and be near the leaders. 

Burning down Geneva, and if we can reach them, Seoul and Lisbon, would help a lot ot neutralize the other team's edges over us. That can be the main goal of foreign policy. Then, I hope that I'm still hanging in there when the final world war breaks out, and hope that I'm on theright side. I rate my chances of this at perhaps 15%. 35% of the time Molotov/Ribbentrop win, and 50% of the time I think Rome/China pull this out. 

Okay, that maybe sounded pessimistic, but I feel better for it. I know The Reason I Suck, and I know the best steps I can take to fix it. My goal coming in to this game was to learn, not embarrass myself, and have fun. So far, I think I'm meeting those goals (I dunno, guys, I've done some pretty embarrassing mistakes so far). Final goal is to win, if possible. Let's work on that. 

Okay, so what comes next? 










Lots of boosts. I need frigates soon as I can. The southern ones I can upgrade and then sail to the other side of the world to raid there. Civics wise, I need exploration, but I need to hold off on a polciy switch for a little bit. Need to finish builders. Then my goals are variously Steel, Military Science (for redcoats), and Mercantilism. 

Here's my new government:



Emphasizing gold generation and not science. My science rate takes a big hit, not helped by pirates plundering around geneva. I send the whole damn navy after them. 

The present front:



I wonder if Sullla is thinking about trying to snipe Cornflakes from us? That'd be a huge coup for him. I cautiously bring up my lone knight to peek at Japper's defenders:




Yeah, let's let Rome beat their head against a big army for once. Sullla's muskets and Caaravels will have a fine time here, but I'm going to bring my new Caravel fleet down to observe. 

WEst England:




East England:




Gameplan is what i outlined above. I know how long a shot it is, but I'll try to keep this PBEM fun for you guys. Thanks for sticking with me so far. Sorry for being a pessimist, I'll try to get back to my usual cheery tone soon! See y'all tomorrow!

[Woden]

Nubia-Turn 115

My turn wasn't as game changing as CMF's but still a very, what should I say...interesting turn. I consider myself fairly knowledgeable about the mechanics of this game but I can say after this turn, I learned about something that I have no clue about. I open the save too...

Notice anything about that screenshot? Go back and take a good look, I will give you a minute. Anything? Take a look in the lower right hand corner. Notice anything?...Why do I have Emilie du Chatelet? I didn't buy her last turn and in fact TheArchduke should have got her on his turn. I went back to the last turn save and checked it out...

Last turn he had 227.4/240 and is making 14.3 gpp/turn, so at the start of his turn he should have 241.7/240. I am making 10 gpp/turn and have 222/240 last turn and should have 232/240. 

Did I accidentally buy her with a misclick? No, I didn't have enough faith and I still have it all, plus I earned her this turn...

The only explanation is that TheArchduke passe on her, but why did I earn her? I didn't have enough points to get her and, in fact, I didn't have the option to recruit her, she just appeared. What happens when someone passes on a great person? Does anybody know? I just assumed you would have to wait until the next person gets enough points to recruit them and then you would get yours if the era has not moved forward, right? No the case. 

I should be at zero Scientist points now, right? Well...

No, I have 40. TheArchduke should have 241.7 points then since the Era did advance with me finishing Gunpowder and being the 5th player (making it a majority) in the Renaissance Era (side note, I probably would have waited a turn to finish Gunpowder if I was paying attention, since if TheArchduke didn't pass, I would have gotten the next one but only if I didn't advance Eras) but nope...

He has 193.5/420 ggp? (Another side note: looks like he was running the +2 scientist card since his gpp/turn dropped from 14.3 to 12.3 this turn.) What is going on here? Looks like I gained 48 gpp in between turns. I was not running projects, so way to earn extra points. Does skipping one automatically gives it to the next person and then they get a default value of points to begin again with? Does it reduce the cost of the skipped one to help hurry it along. I didn't have a choice to take her, so it does force it on the next person but as for the points, I have no clue. Does anybody have any insight into this? I might have to run a test game to figure this out.

Like I said, interesting! Well, I did get a Great Scientist thanks to TheArchduke. And it did complete a quest for Lisbon. One more envoy and I will get the first +4 to CHs. 

And now to the front for more good news. If you notice the notifications in the first screenshot, you will notice 2 attacks and no kills! Awesome. Here is what I saw...

My knight held on with 1 HP Wow, that has to hurt, Cornflakes! One troubling thing I noticed in that view is Rome's troops looking like they are getting ready to attack. I quickly go to Rome's screen and check it out...

I can't declare on Rome because someone has a friendship with them. Awesome, looks like they accepted it, CMF. Of coarse you already know this as you have already reported it. Anyways, let's get to working on Cornflakes remaining troops. Start off in the south...

I have 2 GG-powered Crossbow. Is it enough?

Yep. I can see 2 more crossbows that I can take out. If you notice the crossbow over by Rome's troops. It is GG-powered and has 3 movement points. Normally, I could move it to firing position but not fire as a flat and a hill will cost 3 movement points, but there is a road on the flat desert to the hill. I move to the hill and still have movement to fire...

Follow it up by moving the injured crossbow to the back lines and bring 2 health one forward. The one in back fires first...

Dead. Now the front one fires...

Dead. Here is what it look like at the end of my attack...

I move a knight into the jungle area to see if there are anymore hiding in the fog. I don't see anything but there could be more in the fog next to the encampment. Next turn I will move up and start hitting the city with crossbows to see how much damage I can do. 

Back home...

The tile grabber at Horus finally grabbed the forest tile I have been waiting for and I chopped the walls. With the production I put into it last turn, the University will finish next turn. I use a missionary charge at Amon to give it 2 more followers (now at 3). Next turn I will convert it and then move onto Horus and Osiris. The other one will move to CMF's smaller cities to try for 6 cities and the boost to Reformed Church.   

Checking out my tech tree...

I think I will probably use the GS after I get the boost to Square Rigging. That way, there is higher probability to get useful boosts in the industrial era, as there are many techs I probably won't get the boost for naturally. 

Finally, to speed up the Square Rigging boost, I figure I can go kill whatever barbs are in the north with a musket, so I ask CMF for a little bit of cash...

Sorry about always begging for money but you don't need upgrades anymore in the immediate future so I figure you can spare a little bit. 

Awesome turn set CMF. Congratulations on landing the VA! I think you just made this a very competitive game. Now with these friendships, let's get some development done. I will give some opinions on that in another post as this one is long enough.

Loses this turn:
Cornflakes: 3 crossbows
Me: None

[Woden]

Now, we have peace with Rome/China and Russia/Germany for the next 25+ turns. We need to use this time wisely.

For me, I plan to expand some and develop my cities a little bit, fix my economy, and then rebuild my army with massive amounts of crossbows and field cannons to get ready for an attack.

For you, it sounds like you have a plan but may I give you a little advice. Focus on growth and gold generation before science. Yes, campus will help your tech rate but gold will help your development more and you can augment a lot with gold that you can't with science. In all your cities, your 2nd or next district should be a commercial hub to get more trade routes. More trade routes equals more food, production, and/or gold plus some science and culture. I think anywhere that doesn't have a granary should get one ASAP, followed by a lighthouse. Now you may think a lighthouse is not needed since you have a granary but you need a lighthouse to get a shipyard and you need shipyards. Shipyards provide production equal to the adjacency of the RND, therefore you can get high production for running the adjacency doubling card and the production goes to everything. Once you can, place a CH then chop it out when you can into walls or a ship (but remember Maritime Industries is obsolete at Exploration). Only after a city has a RND and a CH, should you build a campus. Now that we have friendships, I would buy granaries and lighthouse where you can during the next 10 or so turns. We have some time to save for upgrades further down the line and whatever you do, don't upgrade anything you don't need right now. It only increases maintenance costs. You should be able to double, if not triple, your income in the next 30 turns, especially once you have the Triangle Trade card. Science will come in due time and it will increase with growth, plus you are focusing on the top of the tree, while Rome and Germany are focusing on the whole tree. Work towards England strengths, then you will be in a better position to win the game.

Lastly, feel free to settle the spot next to your capital. I have plenty of other awesome city locations that I need to settle sooner. It also has another source of niter for you. It should grow quickly, so start with a granary. You could actually build a RND in the lake by your capital. Also, feel free to settle the coastal spot by Valletta. It will be hard to get cities over there and the more cities you have in the northern sea the better.

[aetryn]

Nubia-Turn 115

My turn wasn't as game changing as CMF's but still a very, what should I say...interesting turn. I consider myself fairly knowledgeable about the mechanics of this game but I can say after this turn, I learned about something that I have no clue about. I open the save too...

Notice anything about that screenshot? Go back and take a good look, I will give you a minute. Anything? Take a look in the lower right hand corner. Notice anything?...Why do I have Emilie du Chatelet? I didn't buy her last turn and in fact TheArchduke should have got her on his turn. I went back to the last turn save and checked it out...

Last turn he had 227.4/240 and is making 14.3 gpp/turn, so at the start of his turn he should have 241.7/240. I am making 10 gpp/turn and have 222/240 last turn and should have 232/240. 

Did I accidentally buy her with a misclick? No, I didn't have enough faith and I still have it all, plus I earned her this turn...

The only explanation is that TheArchduke passe on her, but why did I earn her? I didn't have enough points to get her and, in fact, I didn't have the option to recruit her, she just appeared. What happens when someone passes on a great person? Does anybody know? I just assumed you would have to wait until the next person gets enough points to recruit them and then you would get yours if the era has not moved forward, right? No the case. 

I should be at zero Scientist points now, right? Well...

No, I have 40. TheArchduke should have 241.7 points then since the Era did advance with me finishing Gunpowder and being the 5th player (making it a majority) in the Renaissance Era (side note, I probably would have waited a turn to finish Gunpowder if I was paying attention, since if TheArchduke didn't pass, I would have gotten the next one but only if I didn't advance Eras) but nope...

He has 193.5/420 ggp? (Another side note: looks like he was running the +2 scientist card since his gpp/turn dropped from 14.3 to 12.3 this turn.) What is going on here? Looks like I gained 48 gpp in between turns. I was not running projects, so way to earn extra points. Does skipping one automatically gives it to the next person and then they get a default value of points to begin again with? Does it reduce the cost of the skipped one to help hurry it along. I didn't have a choice to take her, so it does force it on the next person but as for the points, I have no clue. Does anybody have any insight into this? I might have to run a test game to figure this out.

Like I said, interesting! Well, I did get a Great Scientist thanks to TheArchduke. And it did complete a quest for Lisbon. One more envoy and I will get the first +4 to CHs. 

When a Great Person is passed, the person who passes loses a number of Great Person Points for passing, and those cause the cost of the Great Person to become discounted by the same amount. It looks like Archduke lost about 48 points so her cost was reduced to (about) 192, which works out to you having around 40 points left. It also looks like two different civs can't pass the same Great Person, so the next person to meet the threshold automatically is awarded it.