Chevalier Absolutely Knows What He's Doing as Best Korea

[aetryn]

I like the food situation at But Who's Counting? and I agree that working the food is the right call. However, long-term this city has a major problem - it basically has no production. There are two hill tiles in the entire 2-ring radius, and none of the 3-ring tiles are amazing or something to make up for it. I'd say this city has to be careful to use its chops to get its key districts and this city isn't going to produce much else (which is a shame, because with all those people working tiles you'd like some nice tiles to work). This might be a city to run a science specialist and maybe a commercial one also, assuming you mean to build a Seowon and a CH here.

[skanar]

To be clear: I'm not sure war AGAINST Japper is the best path. I think this is likely to be a situation similar to suboptimal/Kaiser/Ichabod in PBEM3(?), where one civ is losing a war (Japper/Ichabod), another is winning (Archduke/Kaiser), and a third has a chance to intervene (CMF/suboptimal). The precise MANNER of intervention will depend on circumstance. It could mean setting up an alpha-strike against some wounded Archduke units, perhaps with well-timed open borders with Japper; it could mean scooping up some poorly defended cities in Japper's rear; etc. 

"According as circumstances are favorable, one should modify one's plans"

Of course and most likely I'm misreading/mispredicting the future situation entirely!

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

Are Japper and Archduke at war? If so, as soon as Antioch is conquered, it's time to start preparing for the timing hit on Japper/Archduke as appropriate, IMO.

Yeah, they're still at war. I may have to cancel Antioch entirely, depending on circumstances. I think you're right, though, that the best path forward, especially if Archduke continues to leap ahead at this rate, is to conquer a developed neighbor, and Japper's laggardly growth suggests him as a target. 

I'm also debating proposing a joint war with Archduke to Alhambram. Why make peace? It just gives him a chance to send his nasty +6 combat bonus trade routes. A state of Always War with him might be the way to go.

You could also try Sumeria for the Joint War, once their DoF runs out. I'm interested to see if an emergency triggers if Archduke captures a city now that everyone has met everyone else. It may require that everyone have vision on the city taken, which obviously isn't going to happen for a while.

I don't think this is the time for a protracted war with a city state, even if that means Alhambram can keep it for a while. Later in the game, of course, a city state has no chance of staying free against a serious attack, and it's extended enough that even in the event that you get into a war with the Dutch it would be hard for them to hold it.  Maybe you even let him keep suzerinity and just build up to the 6 envoy bonus? You'll want a strong economy, and you'll presumably be building markets everywhere for the extra trade routes. Why not boost them further?

I agree that Japper has to be a target at this point (unfortunate for him, he always seems to end up on the bad end of 2 on 1s it seems). If anything is left from the war with Mongolia when your DoF runs out with Cree, you should try to take a border city or two.

Congratulations on Hypatia! Hopefully this can be bartered into a commanding tech lead at some point, even if it's just a window of opportunity for a few turns.

Yeah, with a Mongol army potentially showing up on Japper's borders soon, I think Antioch is out of reach for now. It'd take a significant investment to capture, and with walls up I can't capture it with my current force. I'll probably redeploy to the north, to be ready to intervene if Japper's capital falls. 

One thing that I wonder about is which city Archduke is sending his trade routes to. I doubt he sent one to Japper to begin with, unless the timing was utterly perfect, but if he sends his trader to a border city instead of the capital, then he loses his visibility bonus as soon as he captures that city. 

I like the food situation at But Who's Counting? and I agree that working the food is the right call. However, long-term this city has a major problem - it basically has no production. There are two hill tiles in the entire 2-ring radius, and none of the 3-ring tiles are amazing or something to make up for it. I'd say this city has to be careful to use its chops to get its key districts and this city isn't going to produce much else (which is a shame, because with all those people working tiles you'd like some nice tiles to work). This might be a city to run a science specialist and maybe a commercial one also, assuming you mean to build a Seowon and a CH here.

Are you talking about the right city? But Who's Counting has 3 hill tiles first ring, and 1 more in the second. In the 3rd ring, there are fully 7, albeit half in Antioch's territory or likely to fall to Tsingyberg unless I purchase that tile quickly. I was planning on putting the seowon in one of the third ring tiles near OCISLY, and putting OCISLY's seowon on the isolated hill to the west. I could also put it across the lake, but that necessitates capturing Antioch since most of the boosted hills are in Antioch's borders. 

It WOULD be a slow-growing city, but when I planted it I was hoping that Antioch and Of Course I Still Love You would be able to claim a lot of the third ring hill tiles themselves, which would speed things up a lot. Another reason why Antioch needs to be incorporated at some point. 

To be clear: I'm not sure war AGAINST Japper is the best path. I think this is likely to be a situation similar to suboptimal/Kaiser/Ichabod in PBEM3(?), where one civ is losing a war (Japper/Ichabod), another is winning (Archduke/Kaiser), and a third has a chance to intervene (CMF/suboptimal). The precise MANNER of intervention will depend on circumstance. It could mean setting up an alpha-strike against some wounded Archduke units, perhaps with well-timed open borders with Japper; it could mean scooping up some poorly defended cities in Japper's rear; etc. 

"According as circumstances are favorable, one should modify one's plans"

Of course and most likely I'm misreading/mispredicting the future situation entirely!

it all depends on how the Mongol/Cree war proceeds. Right now, I'm not buying Archduke as a serious threat, simply because his main unit would be chariots and those are pretty much obsolete. In about 10 turns, he could probably be on his way with a GG and an army of 49 strength horsemen (against Japper, a none-too-shabby 43 strength against my units), though. If Japper starts to fall, then Korea has three options:

1)Stand pat and do nothing. This seems not ideal. 
2)Intervene on behalf of the Cree. Try and wipe out some of the Mongol units, and keep Japper around as a buffer. While this course appeals to my moral nature, strategically, it seems inferior to
3)Fight both Cree and Mongols, like Alhambram did with Japper and pin in PBEM5. It didn't work out for Alhambram in the long-term, but in the short term he easily stormed over Japper's undefended cities and took the lion's share of the spoils from the war. Ideally, this would see an army of Korean swords or perhaps even crossbows striking the two cities near my border, then pushing for the capital. We'd declare war on the Archduke to deny any chance of +6. In an ideal world, I'd have a GG too. After seowons, I'd like to get an encampment down to start farming those points for the medieval age. I also want to avoid units like Knights, which otherwise seem to come at about the right time, because I worry about fighting with cavalry against the Mongols (that fear may be overblown - apparently capturing cavalry usually leaves you with a weak cavalry unit, and doesn't become a monstrous snowball too quickly). 

If the war is stalemated, then I probably want to prop Japper up. Intervening could cause a collapse in his front, which I don't want. 

And if Archduke ws just killing a scout or something, and he's fighting Rowain, then I need ot think about conquering Japper as expeditiously as possible. Mongolia is already in a very strong position - his culture rate is three times that of Japper's, twice my own, and 5 points ahead of any of his competitors. His science rate is less impressive, 2nd to last in the game (ahead of poor Japper), but his population will grow quickly. He has 7 cities, 2 encampments, and a campus at the moment. Absorbing Sumeria's holy sites and campuses, to say nothing of the 4 cities themselves, would put him in an all-but unassailable position. The only way to keep up would be to take Japper's 4 cities for myself. Valetta gets to live, but Nan Madol, Yerevan, and Antioch would all also be sources of additional potential strength. 

I dunno, I feel like I've played a good game so far, but I might lose nonetheless just because of actions on the other side of the map.

[aetryn]

Are Japper and Archduke at war? If so, as soon as Antioch is conquered, it's time to start preparing for the timing hit on Japper/Archduke as appropriate, IMO.

Yeah, they're still at war. I may have to cancel Antioch entirely, depending on circumstances. I think you're right, though, that the best path forward, especially if Archduke continues to leap ahead at this rate, is to conquer a developed neighbor, and Japper's laggardly growth suggests him as a target. 

I'm also debating proposing a joint war with Archduke to Alhambram. Why make peace? It just gives him a chance to send his nasty +6 combat bonus trade routes. A state of Always War with him might be the way to go.

You could also try Sumeria for the Joint War, once their DoF runs out. I'm interested to see if an emergency triggers if Archduke captures a city now that everyone has met everyone else. It may require that everyone have vision on the city taken, which obviously isn't going to happen for a while.

I don't think this is the time for a protracted war with a city state, even if that means Alhambram can keep it for a while. Later in the game, of course, a city state has no chance of staying free against a serious attack, and it's extended enough that even in the event that you get into a war with the Dutch it would be hard for them to hold it.  Maybe you even let him keep suzerinity and just build up to the 6 envoy bonus? You'll want a strong economy, and you'll presumably be building markets everywhere for the extra trade routes. Why not boost them further?

I agree that Japper has to be a target at this point (unfortunate for him, he always seems to end up on the bad end of 2 on 1s it seems). If anything is left from the war with Mongolia when your DoF runs out with Cree, you should try to take a border city or two.

Congratulations on Hypatia! Hopefully this can be bartered into a commanding tech lead at some point, even if it's just a window of opportunity for a few turns.

Yeah, with a Mongol army potentially showing up on Japper's borders soon, I think Antioch is out of reach for now. It'd take a significant investment to capture, and with walls up I can't capture it with my current force. I'll probably redeploy to the north, to be ready to intervene if Japper's capital falls. 

One thing that I wonder about is which city Archduke is sending his trade routes to. I doubt he sent one to Japper to begin with, unless the timing was utterly perfect, but if he sends his trader to a border city instead of the capital, then he loses his visibility bonus as soon as he captures that city. 

I like the food situation at But Who's Counting? and I agree that working the food is the right call. However, long-term this city has a major problem - it basically has no production. There are two hill tiles in the entire 2-ring radius, and none of the 3-ring tiles are amazing or something to make up for it. I'd say this city has to be careful to use its chops to get its key districts and this city isn't going to produce much else (which is a shame, because with all those people working tiles you'd like some nice tiles to work). This might be a city to run a science specialist and maybe a commercial one also, assuming you mean to build a Seowon and a CH here.

Are you talking about the right city? But Who's Counting has 3 hill tiles first ring, and 1 more in the second. In the 3rd ring, there are fully 7, albeit half in Antioch's territory or likely to fall to Tsingyberg unless I purchase that tile quickly. I was planning on putting the seowon in one of the third ring tiles near OCISLY, and putting OCISLY's seowon on the isolated hill to the west. I could also put it across the lake, but that necessitates capturing Antioch since most of the boosted hills are in Antioch's borders. 

It WOULD be a slow-growing city, but when I planted it I was hoping that Antioch and Of Course I Still Love You would be able to claim a lot of the third ring hill tiles themselves, which would speed things up a lot. Another reason why Antioch needs to be incorporated at some point. 

Um. I apparently missed the two jungle hills in the first ring while somehow noticing that none of the other jungles are hills. Nevermind! 4 hill tiles within second ring are fine. I mostly discount non-resource bearing third ring tiles when considering a city plant (not ones shared with a neighbor, obviously), since you either have to pay a steep price for a fairly generic tile or wait until the game is over for the city to pick it up naturally. Obvious exceptions for Russia, Australia under some circumstances, and anyone else with culture bombs / extra tile getters (Cree trade routes?).

To be clear: I'm not sure war AGAINST Japper is the best path. I think this is likely to be a situation similar to suboptimal/Kaiser/Ichabod in PBEM3(?), where one civ is losing a war (Japper/Ichabod), another is winning (Archduke/Kaiser), and a third has a chance to intervene (CMF/suboptimal). The precise MANNER of intervention will depend on circumstance. It could mean setting up an alpha-strike against some wounded Archduke units, perhaps with well-timed open borders with Japper; it could mean scooping up some poorly defended cities in Japper's rear; etc. 

"According as circumstances are favorable, one should modify one's plans"

Of course and most likely I'm misreading/mispredicting the future situation entirely!

it all depends on how the Mongol/Cree war proceeds. Right now, I'm not buying Archduke as a serious threat, simply because his main unit would be chariots and those are pretty much obsolete. In about 10 turns, he could probably be on his way with a GG and an army of 49 strength horsemen (against Japper, a none-too-shabby 43 strength against my units), though. If Japper starts to fall, then Korea has three options:

1)Stand pat and do nothing. This seems not ideal. 
2)Intervene on behalf of the Cree. Try and wipe out some of the Mongol units, and keep Japper around as a buffer. While this course appeals to my moral nature, strategically, it seems inferior to
3)Fight both Cree and Mongols, like Alhambram did with Japper and pin in PBEM5. It didn't work out for Alhambram in the long-term, but in the short term he easily stormed over Japper's undefended cities and took the lion's share of the spoils from the war. Ideally, this would see an army of Korean swords or perhaps even crossbows striking the two cities near my border, then pushing for the capital. We'd declare war on the Archduke to deny any chance of +6. In an ideal world, I'd have a GG too. After seowons, I'd like to get an encampment down to start farming those points for the medieval age. I also want to avoid units like Knights, which otherwise seem to come at about the right time, because I worry about fighting with cavalry against the Mongols (that fear may be overblown - apparently capturing cavalry usually leaves you with a weak cavalry unit, and doesn't become a monstrous snowball too quickly). 

If the war is stalemated, then I probably want to prop Japper up. Intervening could cause a collapse in his front, which I don't want. 

And if Archduke ws just killing a scout or something, and he's fighting Rowain, then I need ot think about conquering Japper as expeditiously as possible. Mongolia is already in a very strong position - his culture rate is three times that of Japper's, twice my own, and 5 points ahead of any of his competitors. His science rate is less impressive, 2nd to last in the game (ahead of poor Japper), but his population will grow quickly. He has 7 cities, 2 encampments, and a campus at the moment. Absorbing Sumeria's holy sites and campuses, to say nothing of the 4 cities themselves, would put him in an all-but unassailable position. The only way to keep up would be to take Japper's 4 cities for myself. Valetta gets to live, but Nan Madol, Yerevan, and Antioch would all also be sources of additional potential strength. 

I dunno, I feel like I've played a good game so far, but I might lose nonetheless just because of actions on the other side of the map.

I think Rowain isn't going to collapse as easily as Japper could, at least not at the current technology generation. If I remember from the score reports he had one of the strongest militaries after Archduke, his economy was among the best, and his culture/science were on the top end. I mean, maybe Archduke takes his cities but if it takes too long it's not going to be worth it. I don't think Archduke gets involved in that kind of slugging match - if he can't see a decapitation strike with Sumeria, he's not going to start the fight when Japper is a softer target (and probably Korea as well, though logistics start to become a problem at that point, as you pointed out). All bets are off when we reach Keshiks and Sumeria's early lead starts to fade a bit - but by then you might have more of a mobile intervention force (or a direct front if Japper is gone).

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

I thought of a solution to the Antioch problem: Amani!

Her base ability is to add +3 envoys to a city state while she's there. That would be enough to temporarily knock Alhambram out of suzerainity and give my troops access to the city (once the city enforces its borders, of course). He'll see the attack coming from 5 turns away, but even reacting instantly with his own Amani wouldn't work, since she needs 5 turns to establish herself - I'd still get 1 turn of access, which is all I'd need.

Depending on the Cree diplomatic situation, that will be my tentative plan. Amani might be the next governor to grab after Pingala.

[Ituralde]

So two more Governor titles? What's the timeline for getting those. I think you get one from the Governors Plaza, but I have not begun to remember where they are situated on the Civics Tree. I only remember from my R&F game that there are some stretches where you get no Governor titles for a long time.

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

I'll receive one for finishing the Audience Chamber, and there's two more at Defensive Tactics and Recorded History, the next level of the civics tree from my current position. That's enough for Pingala, Amani, and one of Reyna, Moksha, or Victor. The last two titles will have to wait for Guilds and Medieval Faires.

[Ichabod]

To be clear: I'm not sure war AGAINST Japper is the best path. I think this is likely to be a situation similar to suboptimal/Kaiser/Ichabod in PBEM3(?), where one civ is losing a war (Japper/Ichabod), another is winning (Archduke/Kaiser), and a third has a chance to intervene (CMF/suboptimal). The precise MANNER of intervention will depend on circumstance. It could mean setting up an alpha-strike against some wounded Archduke units, perhaps with well-timed open borders with Japper; it could mean scooping up some poorly defended cities in Japper's rear; etc. 

"According as circumstances are favorable, one should modify one's plans"

Of course and most likely I'm misreading/mispredicting the future situation entirely!

I was never losing the war against Kaiser. Suboptimal's attack actually delayed me from conquering Kaiser's capital for quite a bit. Not that it changes your point, but I need to preserve my achievements in MP, as they aren't that many.

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

Turn 72

Quiet turn today. Not much going on in MY part of the world. Archduke, on the other hand...

Well, he founded city #8 today. That's 5 self-founded cities, 3 captured. I have 6, soon to be 7 self-founded cities. Antioch would equalize, but we're not taking Antioch. Yerevan or Nan Madol are both far away, but possibilities. He's obviously doing the same thing I did with Magnus, only he rushed someone else first. I was hoping he wouldn't do that, but he has to slow down soon - as we found out, settler costs after #4 are prohibitively expensive. I can still manage with Magnus, but I need more tech first. He holds 3 districts to my 1 (2 encampments, 1 campus), and 2 more cities. Empire score is 16 points higher than mine - and I'm second. This early-conquest snowball combined with the settler push is insane. I might be able to keep up once my own powers of Jesuit Education + seowons come online, but it'll be tough.

The other source of his power is his culture, 30 clefs per turn. He's 3 civics up on me. One is the cheap Military Tradition, but the others are probably Games & Rec and Mysticism. Rowain and Alhambram have only 20 each, to my 14 and Japper's 10. The Colosseum will be a big fix here, doubling my culture output and putting it near Archduke's. 




This is funny. I'm dead last in techs researched, while having the highest science rate in the game. Hopefully everyone's not paying attention, just looking at the order of everyone's rank without checking the actual scores. 

Overview:






Lots of pop growth and buildings soon. Need to finish the seowon at IBtP so I can use Hypatia.

[skanar]

To be clear: I'm not sure war AGAINST Japper is the best path. I think this is likely to be a situation similar to suboptimal/Kaiser/Ichabod in PBEM3(?), where one civ is losing a war (Japper/Ichabod), another is winning (Archduke/Kaiser), and a third has a chance to intervene (CMF/suboptimal). The precise MANNER of intervention will depend on circumstance. It could mean setting up an alpha-strike against some wounded Archduke units, perhaps with well-timed open borders with Japper; it could mean scooping up some poorly defended cities in Japper's rear; etc. 

"According as circumstances are favorable, one should modify one's plans"

Of course and most likely I'm misreading/mispredicting the future situation entirely!

I was never losing the war against Kaiser. Suboptimal's attack actually delayed me from conquering Kaiser's capital for quite a bit. Not that it changes your point, but I need to preserve my achievements in MP, as they aren't that many.

Right you are! Mistyped that.