Chevalier Absolutely Knows What He's Doing as Best Korea

[aetryn]

A couple other minor requests: 

We should be able to track net Era Score since the Classical Age began. I'd like to know whether our opponents are likely to end up with a Golden Age in the Medieval period. Do you have a screenshot that's pretty close to when the Classical Era started? Also, what's the age timer look like now?

The other thing I'd like to see is an occasional shot of the culture tab of the victory screen, the one where it lists Domestic Tourists (maybe just when you do Score reports?). Yeah, it's somewhat inaccurate because of boosts landed, but I'd still love to know where we stand every few turns. 

Nothing vital, just more intelligence for the future...

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

Turn 79

Welp:




This surprises no one, except perhaps Rowain, who has less than half of Archduke's military score.

From this point on, I consider myself in a state of Always War with the Archduke:




hate to give him the free culture, but waiting for him to attack me next is just begging for a Mongol +6 trade route. This way, he'll never have the chance. Risks here are low - I lose my scouts, maybe. If he takes over Japper, my neighbor, we had to go to war to put a stop to that anyway. I hope Alhambram gets the hint and joins in. Japper...I have no hope that Japper will build a military and push on Archduke's other flank. Given his history, and his current state in PBEM10, he seems to generally pay no attention to the game and just kind of ambles around doing whatever. The fact that his military score is down to 84 when he was at war with Mongolia is absurd. He didn't even TRY to build units to defend himself!? Or have an army ready to exploit the Archduke being at war on the other side of the map!? 

Well, the only solution obviously is to take advantage of Japper's passivity myself and murder him. Maybe forgo the knights and just go with swords 'n xbows, teching to knights for a second wave? That worked for Sullla in PBEM7 - he had legions, of course, not swords, but I will ahve Oligarchy AND Oligarchic legacy of my own, sooo I'm thinking I might want to step up the timeline to go at Machinery. Overconfident? Well, can you blame me?

I convert 80 faith to 67 science:




Other possible use of faith was a monument purchase, but hell, I have more chops coming in. This accelerates the timeline to machinery, and soon I'll have an iron mine as well (3 turns). Right now, I'm doing a good job landing inspirations - I don't think I've researched anything except Construction at full cost (and I didn't have to do that, either. u_u). I have lots of cheap techs still to get, but I've got as much tech as anyone else. 

East of Japper's capital, I think I know where his last plant is:




This empire looks good. I can hit the first city at the border on the first turn of the war, then surge right up the road to hsi capital, neatly splitting the empire in two. I grab the lake city, then can mop up here on the far side of the desert. This needs to happen as soon to turn 92 (when our DoF expires) as I can swing it, I think screw the knights, we'll bring those along later. 

For reference, aetryn, here are the new great people:


 
(yes, Japper took Euclid a few turns ago)

The culture screen - I'm 100-199 points behind, it looks like:




the scores at the turn of the age:






And here are the scores now:






I need 45 points for a golden age. Not sure what the Golden Age peeps need. Rowain has gained 14, Alhambram 16, Japper 9, Archduke 26, and me 17. I am 9 points away, so Archduke must need a FEW more points. Not many, though.

[aetryn]

Turn 79

Welp:

...

This surprises no one, except perhaps Rowain, who has less than half of Archduke's military score.

From this point on, I consider myself in a state of Always War with the Archduke:

...

hate to give him the free culture, but waiting for him to attack me next is just begging for a Mongol +6 trade route. This way, he'll never have the chance. Risks here are low - I lose my scouts, maybe. If he takes over Japper, my neighbor, we had to go to war to put a stop to that anyway. I hope Alhambram gets the hint and joins in. Japper...I have no hope that Japper will build a military and push on Archduke's other flank. Given his history, and his current state in PBEM10, he seems to generally pay no attention to the game and just kind of ambles around doing whatever. The fact that his military score is down to 84 when he was at war with Mongolia is absurd. He didn't even TRY to build units to defend himself!? Or have an army ready to exploit the Archduke being at war on the other side of the map!? 

I might have waited to see if Archduke triggered an emergency for the bonus, but on the other hand the bonus would probably expire before you could use it anyway. As of your last score report Japper's economy is still so terrible he can't support much of an army - he only has 3 gpt to spare still.

Well, the only solution obviously is to take advantage of Japper's passivity myself and murder him. Maybe forgo the knights and just go with swords 'n xbows, teching to knights for a second wave? That worked for Sullla in PBEM7 - he had legions, of course, not swords, but I will ahve Oligarchy AND Oligarchic legacy of my own, sooo I'm thinking I might want to step up the timeline to go at Machinery. Overconfident? Well, can you blame me?

I convert 80 faith to 67 science:

...

Other possible use of faith was a monument purchase, but hell, I have more chops coming in. This accelerates the timeline to machinery, and soon I'll have an iron mine as well (3 turns). Right now, I'm doing a good job landing inspirations - I don't think I've researched anything except Construction at full cost (and I didn't have to do that, either. u_u). I have lots of cheap techs still to get, but I've got as much tech as anyone else. 

Yeah, it's interesting that there's no "combined science" total available on the score screen like there is (sorta) for culture - but that's probably helpful for us. If not now, then definitely later .

East of Japper's capital, I think I know where his last plant is:

...
This empire looks good. I can hit the first city at the border on the first turn of the war, then surge right up the road to hsi capital, neatly splitting the empire in two. I grab the lake city, then can mop up here on the far side of the desert. This needs to happen as soon to turn 92 (when our DoF expires) as I can swing it, I think screw the knights, we'll bring those along later. 

For reference, aetryn, here are the new great people:

...
(yes, Japper took Euclid a few turns ago)

Not the most interesting Great Merchant, though I suppose it's possible Alhambram starts sending us trade routes if we're allied. I haven't figured out how to value the "random boost" scientists - they seem to be doing very well for people in other PBEMs, but I'm always afraid it will give me a boost I can do on my own. I guess the key is to eliminate the "easy" boosts and hope you hit one of the hard ones. Either way, I don't think it's a scientist we need to try for (and there are two people ahead of us, so it's unlikely we get it).

The culture screen - I'm 100-199 points behind, it looks like:

I think it's 1-199 points - since it's a floor. You may have 1099 points and the opponents may all have 1100. Or, you might have 1000 and they all have 1199. When I was turnplaying for you a few weeks back, we caught up to the tourist number before anyone else advanced. We've been a bit behind in culture each turn though, so it may have gone out to a full 100 by now.  Notice how far down Japper still is. He's only about 55% of the leaders' total cultural accumulation. 

...

the scores at the turn of the age:

...

And here are the scores now:

...

I need 45 points for a golden age. Not sure what the Golden Age peeps need. Rowain has gained 14, Alhambram 16, Japper 9, Archduke 26, and me 17. I am 9 points away, so Archduke must need a FEW more points. Not many, though.

I believe he needs at least another 6 for being in a Golden Age now. I think it also depends on how many cities he had when the age rolled (I seem to recall it happened right before we began our big settlement wave).  Well, it's at least a strong possibility he'll be in a Golden Age again. Not sure how he managed so many era points in the Classical age.

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

Let's see, he probably built an Ordu, he got largest civ when he founded city #9 two turns before I got city #7 out...Need to consult the list, not sure what else he's landed.

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

Oh, one thing I forgot to mention - the Arena chop happened, but we're still looking at 6 turns for the Arena. 56 Magnus production x 1.5 = ~78 of the 150 hammers, leaving 72 to work on at 13 hammers per turn. I went ahead and moved Magnus, since saving him to chop the last jungle would have meant delaying him 2 turns, meaning the Colosseum chop would actually happen a turn LATER if I waited. So he and Liang are swapping places, even though it means either pausing the last builder out of JRTI or dropping a single charge. For now I paused and started work on a holy site, 11 turns to completion. Long time, longer when you remember the work will be interrupted. But it's gotta get done, and sooner is better than later. 

Rough build order I have in mind is Colosseum -> Holy Site -> Audience Chamber, maybe purchasing the shrine for missionaries. Then spend faith to spread missionaries around and get our faith up.

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

Turn 79

Quiet turn, short update. 

So, I open the save to see what diplomatic developments there are. Nothing of interest, except:




Alhambram did not join in the war (which I think is a mistake - it's not like he'll be able to live in peace with Mongolia, and staying at peace just gives him the chance to sneak a trade route to you, but what do I know? I'm an idiot), but Japper signed a DoF with Mongolia! I think this was also dumb on Japper's part - why guarantee a safe border to the guy who's busy eating his other neighbor? But then, Japper's military score is presently 76 (yes), less than a 1/3 of mine - and I've got nothing but warriors and archers running around. 

Seriously, screw waiting for knights. Let's save up gold, upgrade to swords 'n crossbows, and crush this joker. 

Anyway, it's good news that I won't have to worry about a Mongol invasion of Japper until turn 110. One wrinkle could be if Archduke sends a trade route to Japper before I am able to conquer him - that would backfire on me horribly, since then the Mongols would get their diplo visibility on me. Need to watch out for that. 

Speaking of Japper, here's his 4th city:




...

I really hope that the other 3 tiles in this city are fantastic, because...well. Wow. In the 7 visible tiles in the city's first two rings, I count 5 hammers (1 from an improvement) and 4 food. There is a single sheep, as well. Nothing else. There's a perfectly mediocre spot up by the lake I just passed through! What...what is he...I don't even? 

Seriously, every single one of my 7 cities is better than this hunk of junk. 

Builders are getting set for MagnusChops in 5 turns. Arena is 5 turns out, so turn 85 we can chop the Colosseum, so the wonder will finish turn 86. No one else has finished an entertainment district, unless it's at their capital. 

Other cities aren't doing much interesting - monuments are done, scout is finishing up, so we're moving on to seowons or builders as appropriate. Need to slot in a ram for Japper, then start Commercial Hubs to get upgrade gold flowing. 

Score and homeland overview:

[skanar]

I recognize that city of Japper's from my lower-level SP games. Unless I miss my guess, that's a Petra-or-bust plant. Put a city in totally barren desert, run a bunch of trade routes and maybe 1-2 chops and get Petra in 20-30 turns. If it works, you get the best city on the map. In SP, it's a fun push, since the AIs (at least at the mid-level difficulties) take forever to finish it. In MP, I can't see it being worth the opportunity cost of the settler, all the trade routes, etc etc.

Thoughts on Japper push: priority 1, as with any ring game, is to make certain the other flank is secure. Need to carefully monitor the (hopefully) renewal date on the Alhambram DOF. Sustained pressure will also be important. What are the options for military production? Could Magnus chops be funneled into units? How to solve the gold concerns?

I think it's worth more detailed analysis on knights vs swords. I think it's very possible to beat Japper with the latter, but I'm worried it will set Korea up for a well-timed hit by the Archduke to eliminate some wounded units or grab a weakly defended, just-conquered city. With knights, the chance for that goes down significantly.

[aetryn]

I recognize that city of Japper's from my lower-level SP games. Unless I miss my guess, that's a Petra-or-bust plant. Put a city in totally barren desert, run a bunch of trade routes and maybe 1-2 chops and get Petra in 20-30 turns. If it works, you get the best city on the map. In SP, it's a fun push, since the AIs (at least at the mid-level difficulties) take forever to finish it. In MP, I can't see it being worth the opportunity cost of the settler, all the trade routes, etc etc.

Thoughts on Japper push: priority 1, as with any ring game, is to make certain the other flank is secure. Need to carefully monitor the (hopefully) renewal date on the Alhambram DOF. Sustained pressure will also be important. What are the options for military production? Could Magnus chops be funneled into units? How to solve the gold concerns?

I think it's worth more detailed analysis on knights vs swords. I think it's very possible to beat Japper with the latter, but I'm worried it will set Korea up for a well-timed hit by the Archduke to eliminate some wounded units or grab a weakly defended, just-conquered city. With knights, the chance for that goes down significantly.

Petra cities are great and all, but you better be able to keep them when someone comes to take them off you.

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

I recognize that city of Japper's from my lower-level SP games. Unless I miss my guess, that's a Petra-or-bust plant. Put a city in totally barren desert, run a bunch of trade routes and maybe 1-2 chops and get Petra in 20-30 turns. If it works, you get the best city on the map. In SP, it's a fun push, since the AIs (at least at the mid-level difficulties) take forever to finish it. In MP, I can't see it being worth the opportunity cost of the settler, all the trade routes, etc etc.

That might make sense. If so, though, it makes no sense as a 4th settlement, since there's no way Japper can be ready for Petra in any reasonable timeframe. I only just unlocked the bonus for Mathematics, Japper has built only campuses and probably a government plaza at his capital (which brings up a question - circle my scout back to defog the rest of the capital tiles, if possible, or push east and uncover more of the map? I incline towards the latter option as giving more potential reward), which means he needs to hard-research it, which in turn further delays his science, which is already worst in the game. To be fair to Japper on that last point, he's playing against Korea (with 2 seowons down, 1 under construction, and lots more just waiting for the tile expansion - which incidentally is one slight weakness of the district, I admit), the Netherlands (2 river-adjacent campuses), Sumeria (science-boosting ziggurats available basically right away), and Mongolia (who has eaten 1 neighbor and lots of city states for extra pop). 

But trying for a Petra plant as his 4th city, in an otherwise terrible location, while he's at war with the Mongols, is just insane on so many levels. The worst part is, that's probably the least insane explanation for this city.

Thoughts on Japper push: priority 1, as with any ring game, is to make certain the other flank is secure. Need to carefully monitor the (hopefully) renewal date on the Alhambram DOF. Sustained pressure will also be important. What are the options for military production? Could Magnus chops be funneled into units? How to solve the gold concerns?

I think it's worth more detailed analysis on knights vs swords. I think it's very possible to beat Japper with the latter, but I'm worried it will set Korea up for a well-timed hit by the Archduke to eliminate some wounded units or grab a weakly defended, just-conquered city. With knights, the chance for that goes down significantly.

The Alhambram DOF is up turn 95. I think we want to wait to renew that - he should be amenable, given his other neighbor (  ), then we're all clear to go. If we invade Japper prior to that, Alhambram will certainly worry about being left in the dust and is far less likely to renew. 

Military production: Right now, I think I have the units in place, more or less, apart from the knights. What I'm thinking is I'll switch to Maneuver soon, and then combine MagnusManeuver chops with Heavy Chariots to overflow into an Encampment and Barracks at I Blame the Parents for GG points. I wanted to chop out a few more settlers from there, but getting those points started is important. At present rates, it'd take 60 turns for one encampment to produce a GG, so I'll need a 2nd one or to run the wild card as well for 5 or 6 points. Once units and encampments are done, we'll also start running GG projects in that city. 

The projects will boost gold generation quite a bit (something like 20 per turn? There's probably a formula a helpful lurker will supply). Meanwhile, I'm planning 4 commercial hubs: One at OCISLY, one at JRTI next to the government plaza (maybe give up that riversided forested hill for even more adjacency? I hate to do it - is the extra GPT worth the loss of that productive tile?), and 2 at I Saw It First and But Who's Counting? adjacent to each other, since I'm out of rivers. Might even do a 5th at Another Fine Product From the Nonsense Factory to make use of its river - but a harbor there might be better for eureka purposes down the line? Actually, nah, it's not likely the harbor techs will be useful this game (watch that come back to bite me later). 

I don't know how to cram all that into the timeline before war, and I probably can't manage it. The actual DoW date will depend on how soon I can upgrade swords and xbows. 

Here my thoughts on knights v swords: The main thing is, I'm not thinking about the units, I'm thinking about timing. Waiting for knights means another ~10 turns of research and a lot more gold generation. They'll be a big combat advantage, and I definitely want htem against Mongolia. However, Japper is weak right now and likely to remain so. Rowain is being gobbled up right now unless he surprises me with his tactical prowess. Swords and crossbows won't be flashy, but Japper has
a)no science - he might reach swords, but certainly not crossbows, and xbows can shoot up swords pretty good
2)no gold - even if he did research swords, he'd never be able to upgrade more than one or two, I have 5 available, and
d)apparently no strategic instincts whatsoever, judging from past performance and the refusal to build any military against the Mongols. Maybe he cunningly knew that Archduke wasn't really attacking and the whole thing was just a bold gamble to, er, get Petra in that one city, but I rather doubt that. 

basically I think Japper is taking things at the sedate single-player style of play. From previous games, I suspect he doesn't really check the scoreboard in any kind of detail - PBEM10 spoilers:

He seemed completely unaware that Egypt was under attack from suboptimal until he got the notification that they had been eliminated, and was still thinking about attacking rho in 30 turns.

with similar performances in PBEM4, 5, and 7. 

So it's a matter of timing. Knights are coming at the same time either way, and I'll still want to build up a force as a reserve. But they'll be a second-wave unit - I don't think I ought to wait for them to come online before going. Instead, I'm getting everyone to the border (with a slight detour to knock out aetryn's barb camp), upgrading, and going. 

I recognize that city of Japper's from my lower-level SP games. Unless I miss my guess, that's a Petra-or-bust plant. Put a city in totally barren desert, run a bunch of trade routes and maybe 1-2 chops and get Petra in 20-30 turns. If it works, you get the best city on the map. In SP, it's a fun push, since the AIs (at least at the mid-level difficulties) take forever to finish it. In MP, I can't see it being worth the opportunity cost of the settler, all the trade routes, etc etc.

Thoughts on Japper push: priority 1, as with any ring game, is to make certain the other flank is secure. Need to carefully monitor the (hopefully) renewal date on the Alhambram DOF. Sustained pressure will also be important. What are the options for military production? Could Magnus chops be funneled into units? How to solve the gold concerns?

I think it's worth more detailed analysis on knights vs swords. I think it's very possible to beat Japper with the latter, but I'm worried it will set Korea up for a well-timed hit by the Archduke to eliminate some wounded units or grab a weakly defended, just-conquered city. With knights, the chance for that goes down significantly.

Petra cities are great and all, but you better be able to keep them when someone comes to take them off you.

Hey, maybe I can delay declaring war JUST long enough for Japper to finish. Then I swoop in and grab his whole empire and get a fantastic Petra city out of the deal. Fair is fair, Archduke is taking the Oracle off Rowain's hands.

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

Played turn 81, the last before I go out of town tomorrow. I'll put together a big report. I pinned the hell out of everything, aetryn, to show what I was thinking for improvements and districts - way more than what you'll be able to accomplish.