July 11th, 2018, 10:56
(This post was last modified: July 11th, 2018, 10:59 by Nelphine.)
Posts: 5,010
Threads: 17
Joined: Aug 2016
I think your response to problem 1 is fine.
I think your response to problem 2 underestimates the problem - time and gold spent on spearmen or even magic spirit summoning directly increases the chance that problem 4 is an issue, and that the gold you want for sawmills, will be used up making those scouts; particularly for races with expensive spearmen (orcs, halflings, trolls, etc). This addition really shouldn't penalize certain wizards only.
Problem 3 I believe you underestimate. I have seperate continents within 4 squares of my capital often enough that I remember it - probably 1 in 10 games? Maybe 1 in 20, but even then, that's pretty high when bad starting is already a huge issue for the human.
Problem 4, I would rather fix by simply telling the AI lairs are not valid targets until we think a human could reasonably do so.. turn.. 15 - difficulty? (So turn 10 for lunatic?) . This actually gives a bit more time than that because the AI would still have to get there.
This would indirectly also reduce some of the AI snowball problem.
Posts: 10,463
Threads: 394
Joined: Aug 2015
Quote:It only matters for your first 2 or 3 cities. After that, you always have enough good for a sawmill. So, it won't help expand your race any faster than currently.
Can't agree with that. The money you save by not buying a sawmill in city 2 and 3 can be spent on further settlers. Yes, cities 2 and 3 will be less productive but you get cities 4 and 5 another 20 turns earlier to make up for that. And getting to take a good spot without having to go to war is priceless.
Quote:Similarly for military vs settler - it only improves things until you could have bought the settler anyway, which means only for the first 2 or 3 cities, which means it doesn't actually help.
Also disagree. I assumed equal gold cost so that's not the relevant part. The relevant part is, if I buy the settler then I wait 25 turns for it to move to the location and turn into a hamlet. If I buy the troops, I have a productive hamlet 2 turns later and my enemy lost one.
While this wouldn't change, the settler option would become cheaper (no need to save 200 for a sawmill) to compensate for the time loss.
Quote:Changing this makes housing useless, unless you significantly change it
I agree with that. We would need to change it to work based on hammers invested into growth or something like that.
Posts: 441
Threads: 4
Joined: Apr 2018
I like the idea but here's an issue: the idea makes island starts even worse than they already are...
Posts: 5,010
Threads: 17
Joined: Aug 2016
Even before we added starting settlers, we've always had issues with building settlers. It's just not worth it compared to military - 200 gold doesn't make up for 25 turns, especially when conquering the city can get you upwards of 150 gold by itself (more often in the 30-50 range).
Same for using your own race - 200 gold simply is minor compared to the time investment.
You would need to be saving closer to 500 gold to make either of those things noticeably impacted. (I haven't actually mathed it out. Probably closer to 350 than 500, but certainly much higher than 200.)
Posts: 5,010
Threads: 17
Joined: Aug 2016
For the lairs - can we require the ultra easy lairs to be not only in range but on the same continent? That would solve my problem 3, and the 'iskand start is even worse' issue.
Posts: 10,463
Threads: 394
Joined: Aug 2015
(July 11th, 2018, 11:10)Nelphine Wrote: Even before we added starting settlers, we've always had issues with building settlers. It's just not worth it compared to military - 200 gold doesn't make up for 25 turns, especially when conquering the city can get you upwards of 150 gold by itself (more often in the 30-50 range).
Same for using your own race - 200 gold simply is minor compared to the time investment.
You would need to be saving closer to 500 gold to make either of those things noticeably impacted. (I haven't actually mathed it out. Probably closer to 350 than 500, but certainly much higher than 200.)
So we agree it would be a step in the right direction, it just isn't a very large step. Still better than none at all.
Quote:For the lairs - can we require the ultra easy lairs to be not only in range but on the same continent? That would solve my problem 3, and the 'iskand start is even worse' issue.
...actually yes, we can. We need to check the continent ID anyway to make sure we aren't putting them into water.
Posts: 5,010
Threads: 17
Joined: Aug 2016
I don't agree that changing sawmill is a step in the right direction. I believe it does its role correctly right now.
I'm merely saying that the idea that 200 gold savings is not enough to give the advantages you stated, and therefore, those advantages should not be associated with changing either the sawmill or starting city production.
I do agree there is a problem with settlers vs military. But it's so large that trying to fix it with sawmills simply will not work.
Therefore, since I think the sawmill is doing its current role correctly; and since I think the proposed role you think this change will give it, will NOT meet its target; then I do not think changing the role of sawmill is worth it given the current role is already functioning correctly.
July 11th, 2018, 12:03
(This post was last modified: July 11th, 2018, 12:14 by Nelphine.)
Posts: 5,010
Threads: 17
Joined: Aug 2016
On lairs: so with the continent issue solved, would you be willing to also implement a turn limit on ai treasure hunting? In practice that should only matter occasionally, but I think those cases are important.
Given those 2 things, I think the new lairs are a good idea (I disagree on problem 2, but I'm happy to overlook that)
Posts: 10,463
Threads: 394
Joined: Aug 2015
I'll first take a look at whether Lunatic AI even has a stack to attack anything on turn 10. If yes then I might add a turn limit. We already have lair turn limits so there should be a place to add them...
Posts: 5,010
Threads: 17
Joined: Aug 2016
Incidentally, my reasoning for the turn limit on treasure hunting: I actually think a lunatic AI could get those lairs by turn 7 in reasonable circumstances.
Reasonable means:
AI is on the same continent as the human.
AI has a 30% production bonus from terrain on its capital
AI has a base casting skill of 20, and can summon war bears at a cost of 50 (either specialist, 10 nature books, or conjuror).
AI starts 15 squares away from human, and the lair in question is 3 squares away from the human, in the direction of the AI.
That would have the AI attacking with multiple war bears on turn 7, which I think is a bit too early.
|
