July 21st, 2018, 13:31
(This post was last modified: July 21st, 2018, 13:32 by WilliamLP.)
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Here's my read for what it's worth, though I have no desire whatsoever to be an arbiter here.
Quote:I log in and play T37, moving the warrior onto the hill 1E of the "w" sign, spotting superdeath's warrior.
Was that your first sighting of his warrior? If so, that's the point where you realized a split was relevant, so this is when the order is established, so you're in the second half since you played last on T37. Thus I'd consider declaring on the first half of T38 to be the wrong side of the grey area.
From here: http://www.realmsbeyond.net/forums/showt...p?tid=7311
Quote:In a peace-time turn split (eg a settling or hut-popping race) the turn you realise there should be a split is when the order is established.
Double moving on the turn roll this early in the game is extremely normal, even desirable to get the game moving. It's a greyer area if he saw you on T36 but if he didn't, his move is absolutely fine.
I can't perfectly follow your descriptions of where both units were so it's possible I'm missing something.
July 21st, 2018, 15:29
(This post was last modified: July 21st, 2018, 15:58 by Coeurva.)
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If superdeath doesn't double-move us T36/37, then he's the one to spot us, and if he asked about declaring, you'd tell him the exact same: he's not allowed to step on the floodplain and declare first on T38.
But thereby superdeath's double-move gives him an advantage, because it and it alone turns our formerly legal defense -- stepping on the floodplain and declaring -- into an illegal double move. (Our warriors were equidistant from the floodplains tile in the eastern stone/crabs area on T36, and whoever would step on their floodplain-adjacent hill second T37 would be the one to make contact and thus get screwed by losing plausible deniability. Cynically spoken.)
I'm sure he didn't intend this. It's similarly absurd to expect him never to move a warrior twice because he could be double-moving someone just out of sight; but in fact he gets no less of the advantage from double-moving here, and I find that unfair, because it's not like I wanted second half on T37, either.
In a hypothetic PBEM where I went before superdeath in player order on T36, and therefore also T37 and T38, my move would have been legal. But because double-moving is allowed in Pitboss when plausibly inconsequential, it no longer is. What?! Rather than declare superdeath's double-move illegal, which is also nonsense, I think ours should be regarded as legal as well; that way nobody ends up with any advantage from a double-move, intentionally or not.
I'll comply with the Pitboss etiquette you quoted, though -- I'll send him a PM declaring the other void and offer cease fire, which is even more advantageous to him now that our warrior is on the wrong tile. No interest in holding up the game, no interest in arguing rules further than I now have, no interest in lawyering or pissing off anyone over a goddamn warrior on T44. Should have argued for PBEM, too.
Edit: PM to superdeath
Actually it changes that our warrior is even slightly out of position  but the point is, he gets no disadvantage from my apparently illegal move. He can retroactively claim first half if he wants to, because I "took that from him", which is even better for him now because our floodplain-displaced warrior means we can't even catch up with his, unlike before. If anyone needs convincing that I'm far from seeking out "grey areas".
If I'm not permitted to request a turn split here despite having to obey one I didn't choose, then I don't even know what I'd say.
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(July 21st, 2018, 15:29)Coeurva Wrote: If superdeath doesn't double-move us T36/37, then he's the one to spot us, and if he asked about declaring, you'd tell him the exact same: he's not allowed to step on the floodplain and declare first on T38.
Yes that's right. Spotting the unit is what changes this, because the double move is now intentional. I'd say if he spotted you on T36, he may not declare war on you in the first half of T37, and it would be arguably in bad taste to double move his warrior without letting you move first.
July 21st, 2018, 19:15
(This post was last modified: July 21st, 2018, 19:44 by Coeurva.)
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I'm aware, but getting punished for spotting a unit that has just double-moved (if it had been like 3t prior, yeah, I wouldn't have seen my move justified) doesn't feel fair either. If that floodplains was a forest, suddenly we have plausible deniability on our side despite our double-move becoming stronger (if the goal is to occupy the tile first, I'm assuming I could at least not declare war in that situation either). Meh, chalk it up to Fortune, I think your position makes sense too. Mine is still that if you double-move, you have to accept getting double-moved back, but that will probably cause greater problems.
Maybe one could have different double move rules for warrior scouting and global thermonuclear war, though? We want to step on the floodplain and declare to defend ourselves, not to actually attack superdeath, after all, whereas his double-move gives him an offensive advantage (clear path to our capital).
pb38 spoiler
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superdeath said he would have wanted to take the peace treaty anyway.
I declared on first half of T39 after playing T38 first while letting him step on the floodplain, which he did, and then offered a peace treaty, legally this time. Obviously, if he takes it, no need for any turn split. If he doesn't, I do require the split for defense because otherwise he can legally double-move next to our borders and threaten an empty capital and worker simultaneously 
July 22nd, 2018, 17:25
(This post was last modified: July 22nd, 2018, 17:28 by Coeurva.)
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superdeath took the peace treaty and double-moved (legally) from the floodplain, though now he might wish he hadn't taken it. I believe he can't see into Rungholt from any tile that's legal for him now (e: actually the hill 11 of Rungholt, but that'll take a while), and more importantly he can't disrupt our micro before we can partial build an axe, or force us to whip one. If he doesn't try disruption, the partial axe can produce overflow for the Gardens later, so no problem.
Best of all, he'll see us establish our core road network if he keeps hugging our borders, specifically on the copper tile. Ortwîn here will head towards Zululand in turn; I don't care much whether he might get knocked by an impi while slightly out of Superman's vision range (that's his cap's name, quite fitting here), I'll pay 15h for an idea of our neighbour's core. I'm a bit more cautious with our western warrior, but I *think* we can afford scouting the west here. Charriu might have built an early axe again, though.
The missing land tile at the capital makes us drop on the scoreboard far too often  not that this matters. It's more concerning that we currently produce the least CY (19 to avg. 21, best 23), but we compensate with top MFG and settlers don't discriminate; combined foodhammers remain above-average (33 to 31). Soldiers is our 26,000 to rival best 32,000 -- looks like resource units are on the map by now.
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I like your city location to the south of the cap, share sheep and hook cows later. I also think that with such a lack of food we should farm up most of riversides(including fps) and cottage other flatlands. This will give us both: enough food for stable growth early game and opportunity to make watermills later.
July 23rd, 2018, 14:29
(This post was last modified: July 23rd, 2018, 14:36 by Coeurva.)
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News of the turn: There'll be second-ring plains wheat at city #3 if we move it one tile to the south-west. That could be worth it, but we'll lose all first-ring forests, so the barracks now require a whip instead of the convenient chop, worker movement back to the capital is less efficient, and the ivory will be delayed. Hm. If the wheat is 5f, probably worth settling; but if 4f I think we should rather try to grab it with a different city. (I've forgotten whether it was on fresh water.)
Regardless, I think the pig city has enough food (and an early granary) to cottage the floodplains right away, but agree that the eastern cities with their single floodplains and 4f resources should prefer farms. A bit of cottaging to Iron Working is helpful. But trying to make our fortune in foodhammers rather than GNP could work out well, we have a good Classical UU after all that takes a long time to expire due to others' research...
The sheep-sharing will make the easternmost x a bit awkwardly spaced, but yeah, I've come to think that founding #4 without sheep access is just too slow. We can farm the sugar to compensate the 4f tile at the capital, that's no problem. I'd still like to cottage the capital a bit but I'll aim to leave space for watermills by farming an eligible set of tiles.
July 23rd, 2018, 17:47
(This post was last modified: July 23rd, 2018, 17:53 by Coeurva.)
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Found our western neighbour, and it's not Charriu (who must be to our south then -- the map layout has to be roughly hexagonal, right; or is superdeath's warrior actually a long way from home?). I've declined to meet Magic Science -- want to get graphs on superdeath first and there's no benefit to letting him know we want to settle for that grass cow by T60.
Capital micro looks odd, but we can now 1t the granary with the whip + chop, then build a (2t) warrior to regrow simultaneously without happiness problems, which ends up with a good food bar, as well as 14h more over 4t of plains mine, and allows Canoel to take control of the wheat; it's also better to do the granary whip now so that we can shoot up to size6 once everything's prepared. This delays the #4 settler a bit; but #4 is not such an important city in the first place. I think planting #3 on the hill with first ring ivory and two forests is better for the whole empire, the earlier happiness, barracks and granary are just that useful; but it's not too late to change course. (The original site will also not invalidate a later plains hill deer/banana/pig plant you suggested and I'd agree with)
superdeath chose to turn his warrior around to race ours.  He won't get vision on our cities yet, contrary to what I'd been expecting. Apparently prefers to scout the borderland.
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