It's Chevalier's Thread and He Can Do What He Wants To

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

Would anyone be interested in taking the save for a few turns this weekend and next week? I'll be out of town for a few days, from the 3rd to the 8th or so.

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

I have to head out the door for work like right now, but I did get all my images uploaded. While I have done minimalist turn reports before, I'll come back and add commentary later.

Until then, 

Turn 36: A turn in pictures

[Grotsnot]

Ah, I'd been meaning to ask if buying land was a worthwhile option for MP but y'all got it sorted before I could rouse myself to post. I do that all the time in SP but was coming to the conclusion that it must be a scrub move in MP or more people would do it

Also, a few pages back it was mentioned the ideal era score would be 11 - why is that? I would assume that the ideal is 0, plus however many point-scoring events aren't worth postponing. This is my main beef with the era system, I hate how it punishes you for doing *too* well. Any points over the GA threshold may as well be thrown in the trash and then you have that many fewer options to gain score next era. Same with any points that don't quite reach the NA or GA thresholds, just wasted points. Am I wrong? What's the value in getting right up to the threshold?

[suboptimal]

Also, a few pages back it was mentioned the ideal era score would be 11 - why is that? I would assume that the ideal is 0, plus however many point-scoring events aren't worth postponing. This is my main beef with the era system, I hate how it punishes you for doing *too* well. Any points over the GA threshold may as well be thrown in the trash and then you have that many fewer options to gain score next era. Same with any points that don't quite reach the NA or GA thresholds, just wasted points. Am I wrong? What's the value in getting right up to the threshold?

A frequent tactic with eras in R&F is to intentionally enter a dark age then pile on the era points to get a heroic age in the next era, since you get three golden age dedications (IIRC).  Since you need 12 era points to hit a normal age at the start of the Classical Era 11 era points becomes the ideal number to accumulate during the Ancient for a Renaissance Era golden age.

[Banzailizard]

Ah, I'd been meaning to ask if buying land was a worthwhile option for MP but y'all got it sorted before I could rouse myself to post. I do that all the time in SP but was coming to the conclusion that it must be a scrub move in MP or more people would do it

It really depends on what you are getting for the tile.  Its a trade off, gold for an income stream from the tile (well technically a potential income stream when worked).  Its not one of those situations where it is always better to buy or always better to not buy.  Instead you need to take it on a case by case basis.  That being said I would agree in MP the current meta tends to be weighted towards not buying unless its a strong tile.

While I am here, have some score graphs.


I filled the last corner with an average score graph. I actually had to look up how to reference multiple excel sheets so that was interesting. I'll pick a color set for it latter.  My first thought was to average the colors of the competing civs.  This gave me muddy brown and a depressingly grey-blue color.   Not only ugly but hard to read.  Might just use the main menu color scheme again.

Separately I cannot take over the game or I would.  I am travling/moving for the next 2-3 weeks.  A fact that will stall PBEM 11.  If anyone here is not spoiled on that already and wants to take over my turns there for a few weeks though...

[Grotsnot]

A frequent tactic with eras in R&F is to intentionally enter a dark age then pile on the era points to get a heroic age in the next era, since you get three golden age dedications (IIRC). Since you need 12 era points to hit a normal age at the start of the Classical Era 11 era points becomes the ideal number to accumulate during the Ancient for a Renaissance Era golden age.

Nah, I get that part. I've done the heroic age cycle in SP. My point is that there's no reason (that I'm aware of) to get up to 11. 10, 9, 8, etc are increasingly better for jumping up to heroic because you have, say, your first naval unit still in your back pocket to get points later - when era points aren't worthless garbage that only serve to hint to your opponents about what you're up to. The offset is that you want to get your first naval unit out to go exploring sooner so you do it anyway.

I get wanting to avoid a normal age. My assertion is that there's nothing special about getting up to NA-1, and that deliberately trying to would be a waste. Perhaps the best interpretation of 11 being "ideal" is that it gets the most stuff done in Ancient Era without going over? But that doesn't explain why one would be miffed at someone else getting the extra point for the global first boat.

Edit: I am *technically* available to play turns though I am definitely not the best candidate. Would need moderately detailed instructions and in all likelihood will still screw up the micro somehow. I can at least take a bajillion screenshots to aid in fixing things when you return :P But I'd recommend myself as being, at best, a last resort >_>

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

Being miffed at losing out on first boat is mostly pride on my part. I just...want first boat for bragging rights. 

Anyway, it's mostly the second thing. Era points do, more or less, reflect real accomplishments - getting your pantheon, first to a new era, taht kind of thing, and so deliberately avoiding them isn't something I want to do TOO much of. The most I can get, though, without throwing off the dark->heroic slingshot is 11. So 11 is what I want - it means I'm accomplishing stuff, without making things harder on myself later.

I'm not worried about consciously manipulating it, though. I COULD avoid clearing this barb camp, for example, to save 2 points there - but it's really unlikely that I hit 12 before turn 60 anyway. 

Hm, better do the math again.

Let's say I find a Natural Wonder. That's either 1 or 3. I'll have my pantheon, for 1. I've got first boat, for 3. So, I'll have 4 without a wonder. Adopting my government will add another 1, so we're up to 5. Finding a natural wonder takes me to 6/8 and now the barb camp puts me at 8/10, which is uncomfortably close. Maybe I should hold off on the camp? However, that means detailing a unit to guard the wretched thing, and that in turn ties up an exploring unit and a possible unit for the Grenada capture. I think it's better to clear it. 

So far, era score hasn't caused me to alter my gameplay in any way. I still want an early ship for a foreign continent, for a natural wonder (for astrology, going to work it up to the boost then switch off until I'm ready for my Holy Site project), and, this is key, for city-states. Political Philosophy is a very big deal and it's looking like there's only 1 city-state per starting island (not sure how far my island goes to the northeast but I don't think it's far). That means I need ships in the water pronto, because Early Empire is going to be boosted as soon as Cain is founded and State Workforce will get boosted as soon as I chop out a holy site, so we're not actually blessed with a lot of time for scouting here. Thus, the early galley was (to my mind) well worth the increased risk of going over the era score threshold. 

I really hope that Grenada moves its warrior so I can move and build the farm next turn, because I'd like to move on to working on civics past Foreign Trade/Craftsmanship. I'm confident in landing the boost for both in the next 8 turns, so any culture spent on either in the next 8 turns is culture poured straight down the drain. That, in turn, means I need to start thinking about the galley->holy site chop. I'll need a builder for that, of course, and astrology. 

While I'm rambling (this started talking about era score, but talking about my ship scouting has led to my civic strategy), let's look at the next layer of civics. Math/strategy post incoming, nerd alert. 

The next 3 civics are crucial. Early Empire (6 pop), State Workforce (district), and Political Philosophy (3 city states) are all big boosts - the first two unlock governors, the last doubles your government size. State Workforce wants a district. We want to lead with holy sites, and we want to chop our first one. If we're chopping, we want Magnus first. We can only get Magnus before SW via Early Empire. Early Empire is already boosted, happily (or will be soon). 

Okay, so the tech path seems laid out for us:

Early Empire -> State Workforce -> Political Philosophy. We have 5 turns to establish Magnus before chopping, so that's time to build a worker or galley. We need both, unless I skip the pasture. Cain will also want a worker. 

Looking at this, is there time for a warrior? Not sure that there is. I'm thinking when we finish Craftsmanship that Ilkum Builders are the best choice, then when Foreign Trade triggers we plug in Maritime Industries and start work on a galley. Let's look at numbers to try to nail this down. 

Galleys, 65 cogs. 
Builder, 60 cogs (I've built 2 so far). So we need 120 cogs of production total. The galley has to be built at Escobar. 

Escobar gets 13 cogs a turn. That will drop once the settler is finished, so call it 10 cogs a turn. Maritime Industries bumps that up to 20 for the galley. 

We need 3 turns to pre-build the galley, then. 3 x 10 x 2 = 60 cogs, leaving a small chop. 
Escobar gets 13 cogs per turn towards a builder (10 x 1.3), so the builder takes 5 turns. We need 3 turns for the galley, so the builder gets 2 Magnus-turns and 3 pre-Magnus turns = need to start the builder at least 3 turns BEFORE Early Empire finishes. I think Escobar can swing this. We have a long way to go before Early Empire. 

How will the chop work? Not sure of exact numbers, but chops =1/3 of a district. Maritime Industries means that the chop =2/3 of a district. Magnus is 1.5 now, not 2 (probably for the best), so the chop = 3/3 of a district cost with Magnus. That's good for a 1-turn build. Excellent. So our timeline for the Holy Site is 5 turns after finishing Early Empire, which in turn will boost State Workforce. 

Speaking of Magnus chops, there are fully 6 choppable resources around Escobar. I'm debating how to use those. There are some wonders I'd like - the Pyramids and the Mausoleum both seem viable - but on the other hand, I have a lot of city-locations pinned. Some are pretty poor cities (Morales, Hosmer), but nevertheless valuable. An early city is something giving me science and ships, and their harbors are as good as anything. Do I want to repeat my PBEM8 play of chopping settlers? Or save for wonders? Personally, I incline towards the settler wave. I think that was a game-winning move in PBEM8, except for the Mongols just eating all my other neighbors. Here, that won't happen. If I can once again grab a lead that way, I might be able to ride it all the way this time. The only hesitation is that, again, Hosmer and Morales are lame cities.

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

Step 2: Culture

So obviously the main limiting factor on my civ right now is its culture rate ("you should have taken Rome, Chevalier!" shut up.). That's what sets the timeline for Early Empire, which is looking like the key civic here. 

Let me see...Early Empire is 70 clefs. I will land the 40% off discount, so it's really 42 clefs. With 6 pop in 3 cities, my culture will be ~3 per turn, so we're looking at a solid 14 turns once I find a foreign continent! Yeowch. Why not just swap to Foreign Trade now and not wait for the continent? Because I'm quite confident in my scouting. If I find a foreign continent within 10 turns - that is, within 30 tiles of my galley's present position - then I'll have effectively wasted 8 turns of culture, which is not to be sneezed at. 

Anyway, we're looking at Foreign Trade within 10 turns, to be immediately followed by Early Empire. Let's go most pessimistic and say 24 turns from now - turn 60! :o - is when we unlock Magnus. That's much slower than my Korean game. Where did I get so much early culture from? 

If we have 24 turns, only 3 of those are reserved for a builder (with 5 turns after Magnus to finish the builder and work up the galley). So we have 21 turns to play with. That's plenty of time to spit out Grenada's warriors - although I note that the city-state itself has 3 running around, so this may not be an easy campaign - and maybe even time to squeeze in a monument? I really want more monuments ("Rome" - I said shut up!) to get that culture rate up. Hmmm....Need to think about what to spend those 21 turns on. 

Zobrist is working on a monument until we get agoge, then I can get the 1.5 cogs towards a warrior. I'll swap then. Get the army out, then go back to a culture push. 

Chop out Holy Site, promote Magnus to no-pop-loss settlers with State Workforce, then build Government District -> Ancestral Hall? Then Colonization -> Super Settler Chop? 

Right now I think that's my path to the midgame. Follow up the expansion push with campuses/holy sites, try to hardcore science it, then use Madrasas/Mamluks to wreck my neighbors' day.

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

Turn 37

Still need to update turn 36 with actual, y'know, text. But a lot of the report would be old news by now anyway. Hell, I'll get around to it. Maybe. Or I won't! Who knows! It's not like this is an organized shindig! 

Anyway, turn 37 was fun. Let's dive in.




Grenada's warriors DID move off, leaving me free to build the farm. Buying the tile was a good call here, and it came just as the builder finished - thanks for that, RFS. I've so long discounted buying tiles unless I have to that I didn't even consider it as a possibility.

Speaking of overlooking things, I've been going about Grenada all wrong. I have been talking about building warriors and then slogging them through the city state's mess of warriors and then grabbing those hills and wearing the city down, while speculating on bringing along a galley for support. Well, how come no one told me that that was a stupid plan?

Look, Grenada is right up the coast from Escobar. Galleys are a 5-turn build there at present, 3 with Maritime Industries. Warriors, on the other hand, are a 4-turn build, or 3 with Agoge. Warriors are weaker than galleys, slower than galleys, will be of very limited use except for barb camping, which my slingers and present warrior can easily handle, and also use stupid clubs instead of sweet-ass arrows (how my galleys manage that when Arabia as yet has no conception of the "bow" is beyond me, but I don't make the rules here). Galleys, on the other hand, have +5 strength, move 3 spaces a turn over water (which has no limiting terrain except reefs, which I've yet to encounter), can really help me swarm out and scout the map, and use sweet-ass arrows ("What's an ass arrow, Chevalier?" Shut up) instead of stupid clubs. Given all this, why don't I just build two more galleys out of Escobar and use THEM to bypass all of Grenada's warriors and take the city from the sea? Then I can send them off scouting in new directions! That makes infinite more sense than the warrior plan. What was  I thinking? (Answer: I was not, in fact, thinking). 

On the gripping hand, galleys cost gold in maintenance. 

Well, if I get pinched for gold, I can found Morales and work that tea plantation, and there's always my sea resources. We'll figure out the gold problem later, units now is more important. 

...An evil thought: It's inefficient, and woudl piss off my neighbors, but if I sent a scouting squadron of 3 galleys out I could take and raze city-states on other players' islands if I get them first. That'd be nasty and maybe I can get away with it. That reminds me, I need to make sure that coastal cities are adequately defended from attack over the sea. I don't want to suffer the same fate that Jester did in PBEM4, whttps://i.imgur.com/qbag7IB.png[hen a measly pair of Japanese galleys knocked him out of the game. 

Okay, so we're gonna build three galleys (9 turns) out of Escobar, which will put a heavy strain on gold but will net me Grenada within 15 turns and athen I can use them to scout/ruin other player's day if I want. We'll figure out the gold later, as I said. 

Speaking of scouting, the island my galley found is looking pretty nice:



I forgot to check in settler view, but that's looking like a small, unclaimed island. Once Shipbuilding arrives, the jungle tile (if it's coastal) is looking like a decent city spot. Copper, horses, and a mine all first ring. 

Let's see, I also build a farm and clear the camp, netting me a bunch of inspirations and eurekas:








Craftsmanship down to one turn. We'll work on State Workforce until my scout galley finds a foreign continent, which I'm sure lies within 20 tiles. Then we swap to Early Empire, which is inspired the moment Cain is settled. Irrigation will be important soon for the tea plantation at Cain, which is a bit of gold and science. 

Abroad, Japper's high empire score is not from pop, but from an early district:



Plus, he's getting 2 points a turn! I know what that means!   He took Divine Spark, which is one stupid pantheon out of my way. 

I think lots of people overrate Divine Spark because of the early buggy Civ VI AI. It was basically necessary for you to take it if you wanted to found your own religion. Otherwise the religious zealout AI would beat you, every time. But, outside of helping you get the first religion, what good is it? You get 1 extra point towards great scientists - hooray, as it's as if you built a library, without the science boost. By the time everyone has libraries up, you're not getting a +100% benefit, but down to +50%. As Universities come into play it drops to +33%, and so on. All in all, as the game goes on, the effect is swamped by the varying district and building counts. It MIGHT get you one extra great scientist in the course of a game - but so would Goddess of the Harvest (remember how we sniped Hypatia with GOTH faith in PBEM8?), and GOTH is way more flexible besides. 

Furthermore, Japper built a district as soon as he finished his settler. Nothing wrong with an early district, but he's made his pantheon even more useless. I'm not getting a Holy Site for another ~15 turns or so by my timeline, so he'll have a huge headstart and I'm not about to spend production on Prayer projects just to get the first religion. Second or even third is fine by me (second is obviously better, though). All in all, good news for us! We're 4 turns away from our pantheon. 




New barb camp outside Escobar. Need to keep an eye on this one, can't kill it because it's worth 3 era points (Threatening Camp), so we'll want to wait for a while. Too bad you only get level 1 xp from killing barbs, but maybe if I DO train one or two more warriors/slingers (need the Machinery eureka!), I can train them up here on barbs. There's also a scout north of Escobar, so I might want to use Zobrist to spit out a warrior or two anyway. They don't cost maintenance and they can act as a support in the Grenada amphibious operation if nothing else. I'll need a garrison for each city, plus one or two units to scout. 

Scores:





Snugly at the bottom, largely due to lagging civics and era scores. Empire score is slipping a bit but the farm/Cain will help there. We're in good shape, not falling behind yet!

[RFS-81]

Ah, I'd been meaning to ask if buying land was a worthwhile option for MP but y'all got it sorted before I could rouse myself to post. I do that all the time in SP but was coming to the conclusion that it must be a scrub move in MP or more people would do it

Buying the tile was a good call here, and it came just as the builder finished - thanks for that, RFS. I've so long discounted buying tiles unless I have to that I didn't even consider it as a possibility.

It's not done very often, but I remember sullla writing that getting high-value tiles for your early cities can be worth it. Which makes sense, because it gets the snowball rolling. And in particular on this map, where you (hopefully) won't need gold for emergency swordsmen upgrades.

Speaking of overlooking things, I've been going about Grenada all wrong. I have been talking about building warriors and then slogging them through the city state's mess of warriors and then grabbing those hills and wearing the city down, while speculating on bringing along a galley for support. Well, how come no one told me that that was a stupid plan?

Look, Grenada is right up the coast from Escobar. Galleys are a 5-turn build there at present, 3 with Maritime Industries. Warriors, on the other hand, are a 4-turn build, or 3 with Agoge. Warriors are weaker than galleys, slower than galleys, will be of very limited use except for barb camping, which my slingers and present warrior can easily handle, and also use stupid clubs instead of sweet-ass arrows (how my galleys manage that when Arabia as yet has no conception of the "bow" is beyond me, but I don't make the rules here). Galleys, on the other hand, have +5 strength, move 3 spaces a turn over water (which has no limiting terrain except reefs, which I've yet to encounter), can really help me swarm out and scout the map, and use sweet-ass arrows ("What's an ass arrow, Chevalier?" Shut up) instead of stupid clubs. Given all this, why don't I just build two more galleys out of Escobar and use THEM to bypass all of Grenada's warriors and take the city from the sea? Then I can send them off scouting in new directions! That makes infinite more sense than the warrior plan. What was  I thinking? (Answer: I was not, in fact, thinking). 

I didn't remember that galleys can attack cities. I thought that was a special ability of Norway or something. Sounds like a good plan!