Daylight Saving Time in the EU

[Charriu]

I don't think that a lot of money is pushing for this change. If this is really a big concern for those with the money it would have changed years before. After all we have this system since 20 years. But I agree with you that the way they want to change it is not the best and/or right way to do it. To be fair though many (representative) surveys have proven in the past decades that most people - not only in the EU - don't like the summertime/wintertime-change. Even if I ask around in my community I rarely find somebody who likes to change clocks twice a year.

[Rowain]

So what they want to do is basically shift the entire EU one timezone to the right, putting France on Greek time and Greece on Russian time, and then getting rid of DST? Have I got that the right way round? GMT+1 would become GMT+2, because we add one hour when we 'spring forward'. That would put... let me see.

Basically yes but it is possible that if one country really wants to stay in wintertime all year long they will be free to do so. But given that we have currently a unified switch to DST and off it to avoid problems for trade/railways etc I doubt that that will be used by many countries. There is a reason why Spain is in CET/CEST and not in British time

Spain has the effect already during the time of the DST so it doesn't change much if they have it during the winter-half too.

[Rowain]

I don't think that a lot of money is pushing for this change. If this is really a big concern for those with the money it would have changed years before. After all we have this system since 20 years. But I agree with you that the way they want to change it is not the best and/or right way to do it. To be fair though many (representative) surveys have proven in the past decades that most people - not only in the EU - don't like the summertime/wintertime-change. Even if I ask around in my community I rarely find somebody who likes to change clocks twice a year.

I just find it very strange that a poll on which 4 Mio from ~500 Mio people voted is suddenly such a result to push for it. Especially if you consider that ~3 Mio of the voters came from Germany so the rest of Europe didn't really bother to voice its opinion.

[Cornflakes]

Personally I'd like to say in DST all year round. I'd rather go to work in the dark and have the extra daylight in the afternoon. I'm in Florida where I understand the state legislature has recently approved remaining in DST year-round, but is still awaiting confirmation at the federal confessional level.

I understand there are some concerns such as school children in the morning. But in that specific case, why not just have schools start an hour later? Construction is another industry that would be affected, but in my personal experience we adjust our work schedule to the daylight anyway.

[Commodore]

The Nixon administration approves of this change.
https://www.mercurynews.com/2016/10/30/t...t-too-far/

[Gustaran]

Spain has the effect already during the time of the DST so it doesn't change much if they have it during the winter-half too.

I recently read that a simple switch to DST would move the sunrise in La Coruna, Spain, and Le Havre, France close to 10.00 a.m. during the winter.
While the majority of the German population may feel putting up with an additional hour of darkness in the morning is an acceptable trade-off, I somehow doubt that all countries in the EU would be as excited about a permanent switch to DST.
Even for Germany, it probably depends on how well you deal with working during the dark in the morning, the majority opinion among scientists seems to be that standard time causes the least health issues.

I also fail to see the point of moving school or working hours. The major argument in favor of DST seems to be "There is more daylight in the afternoon after working hours". I assume everybody sees the problem here, when you start moving the beginning of school or work...

[Mardoc]

I'd love it if the US would also stop switching times twice a year.  Might actually happen if the EU does it.

I understand there are some concerns such as school children in the morning. But in that specific case, why not just have schools start an hour later?

Well...why does Daylight Saving Time matter at all?  Why doesn't everyone adjust their schedule when it hits, to undo its effect?  Personally I would love it if I could get away with holding my real schedule constant, showing up to work an hour later and leaving an hour later, but it doesn't work in practice.

I think in practice the frictions of coordination will mean that exceptions won't work anywhere they aren't already working.  When DST starts in the spring, I've got to wake up early even though I don't want to, because everyone at work and our customers are waking up early.  The kids have to wake up early because they need to be away before their parents leave for work.

I personally think the benefits of not-switching will be worth the costs, but if we were flexible enough to have the costs not matter, then we'd be flexible enough to not really care about the clock in the first place. .

I just find it very strange that a poll on which 4 Mio from ~500 Mio people voted is suddenly such a result to push for it

Is this a EU difference?  Here I would expect that politicians would jump on any proposal that had 80%+ approval, so long as the polling agency seemed unbiased enough for the result to be plausible.  Even a proposal that all legislators have to walk on their hands, if it got 80% approval, they would rush to make it happen.  There's a saying that leadership is about finding a parade and walking in front of it.  Anything that gets that much approval is a parade.

A more generous way to phrase it would be that they often hear people wanting to stop DST but never previously believed it was a majority.  They feel that a democracy ought to do things that the citizens want, and now that they know what people want, they're going to comply.

How many polls does the EU run?  If it's a lot, most of which get <50% approval and no action, then their polling is about looking for things like this where lots of people agree but it wasn't previously known.  They aren't immediately enacting the change, either, which gives time for objections.  If the poll turns out to be hugely biased then they will hear objections from a lot of people and find a reason to let it fail - or at least to perform a proper referendum first.

[Charriu]

So what they want to do is basically shift the entire EU one timezone to the right, putting France on Greek time and Greece on Russian time, and then getting rid of DST? Have I got that the right way round? GMT+1 would become GMT+2, because we add one hour when we 'spring forward'. That would put... let me see.

Basically yes but it is possible that if one country really wants to stay in wintertime all year long they will be free to do so. But given that we have currently a unified switch to DST and off it to avoid problems for trade/railways etc I doubt that that will be used by many countries. There is a reason why Spain is in CET/CEST and not in British time

Spain has the effect already during the time of the DST so it doesn't change much if they have it during the winter-half too.

But Portugal is in the British time zone as it should be, so there already a case of different time zones in the EU. I would totally understand if spain takes the opportunity to get into the same time zone as it's neighbor Portugal. It also would make sense to move to their respective timezone. You don't want to end up like the poor people in western China, when it comes to time zones.

[Rowain]

Spain has the effect already during the time of the DST so it doesn't change much if they have it during the winter-half too.

I recently read that a simple switch to DST would move the sunrise in La Coruna, Spain, and Le Havre, France close to 10.00 a.m. during the winter.
While the majority of the German population may feel putting up with an additional hour of darkness in the morning is an acceptable trade-off, I somehow doubt that all countries in the EU would be as excited about a permanent switch to DST.
Even for Germany, it probably depends on how well you deal with working during the dark in the morning, the majority opinion among scientists seems to be that standard time causes the least health issues.

Everyone knows how bad they feel because of the switch. Everyone knows how they love the long sunny evening in summer but noone has experienced how long the darkness will last and effect them if DST is effective in Winter.  There is a good chance that in a few years people will clamour to remove DST in winter.

I just find it very strange that a poll on which 4 Mio from ~500 Mio people voted is suddenly such a result to push for it

Is this a EU difference?  Here I would expect that politicians would jump on any proposal that had 80%+ approval, so long as the polling agency seemed unbiased enough for the result to be plausible.  Even a proposal that all legislators have to walk on their hands, if it got 80% approval, they would rush to make it happen.  There's a saying that leadership is about finding a parade and walking in front of it.  Anything that gets that much approval is a parade.

It makes sense to regard 80% percent in a poll with a turnout close to 50% but here we have a turnout of ~1% so 99.2% either don't care or are ok with the current system.
Are you sure that the loud 0.8% of the populace should rule?

How many polls does the EU run?  If it's a lot, most of which get <50% approval and no action, then their polling is about looking for things like this where lots of people agree but it wasn't previously known.  They aren't immediately enacting the change, either, which gives time for objections.  If the poll turns out to be hugely biased then they will hear objections from a lot of people and find a reason to let it fail - or at least to perform a proper referendum first.

Usually the EU doesn't run polls. IIRC this was the first one.
 

But Portugal is in the British time zone as it should be, so there already a case of different time zones in the EU. I would totally understand if spain takes the opportunity to get into the same time zone as it's neighbor Portugal. It also would make sense to move to their respective timezone. You don't want to end up like the poor people in western China, when it comes to time zones.

IIRC the reason for Spain beeing in CET/CEST is their close economical connection to France. Especially Catalonia which is far enough in the east.

[Huinesoron]

I understand there are some concerns such as school children in the morning. But in that specific case, why not just have schools start an hour later?

Because if I had to drop my kids off at 9:40 I would be very late to work? And if I put them into Breakfast Club for an extra hour each morning I would be very poor?

Mildly facetious, but the point I'm angling for is that none of this stuff exists in a vacuum. There will always be knock-on effects, and even if they work themselves out in the long term, in the short term they can be a nightmare.

hS