[LURKERS] PB 42

[Mardoc]

So, anyone interested in being a pair of eyes?  I've got three saves so far that seem like a tolerable base map to start from.  In each case I still need to build the starts and check strategics, of course.  At the moment just looking for opinions on general landform:
1. Everyone has options for expansion, no ancient era required wars?
2. No one has land that's horribly worse than everyone else?
3. No one is too isolated
4. Navy is important enough to give Krill's changes a fair trial?

Aiming to pick one tomorrow morning and get starting screenshots out by tomorrow afternoon, although I'll delay if I have to.

[RefSteel]

No time to look at this in depth, and I'm not sure if this is the sort of thing you want, but just from a glance at the landforms:

Map A: Spain, China, and the Vikings each need ships to reach any other civ (Vikings on their own island, Spain and China separated by a peak at a one-tile chokepoint which is much closer to China than Spain.)

Map B: Sumeria and Ethiopia are each alone on an island. The Celts, on a landmass with two other civs at the ends of peninsulas, have huge back lines.

Map C: Rome, Japan, Mongolia, and HRE are each alone on a landmass. Aztecs have a two tile long, one tile wide diagonal choke point (due to peaks) that they have to get past to get off of their long, thin peninsula by land; if they can't, France has the rest of that enormous landmass to themselves.

[Boldly Going Nowhere]

I'd help but on mobile so I'll just settle for getting the players' hopes up that I've posted screenshots.

[Mardoc]

No time to look at this in depth, and I'm not sure if this is the sort of thing you want, but just from a glance at the landforms:

Thanks, Ref, that's very helpful.  I'm ok with a civ needing ships, as long as those ships are galleys and they have enough land to get to galleys.  What I'm really concerned about is making sure that players have more than one direction they can expand once those galleys are in play.  Trying to keep choice alive.

In addition to making it more fun, choice helps with keeping things balanced.  If everyone has multiple directions to go, then it's really hard for a single neighbor to wreck your game.

Map A:  Spain, China, and the Vikings each need ships to reach any other civ (Vikings on their own island, Spain and China separated by a peak at a one-tile chokepoint which is much closer to China than Spain.)

Hmm, could make this one work by flattening that choke and adding enough islands near China/Vikings to allow them to go west, not just east.

Map B:  Sumeria and Ethiopia are each alone on an island.  The Celts, on a landmass with two other civs at the ends of peninsulas, have huge back lines.

Now that you point this out, I think I'm ruling this map out.  Too many civs which start at the end of peninsulas, which really restricts their options.  And the Celts having more options rubs salt in that wound.

Map C:  Rome, Japan, Mongolia, and HRE are each alone on a landmass.  Aztecs have a two tile long, one tile wide diagonal choke point (due to peaks) that they have to get past to get off of their long, thin peninsula by land; if they can't, France has the rest of that enormous landmass to themselves.

I think I'm leaning for this one.  I can give people options with very minor edits, like giving the Aztecs a second bridge to France and adding a few island chains to make sure the single-landmass people can sail in multiple directions.

[Mardoc]

Argh, Windows 10 has set my permissions weird so I can't take screenshots at the moment. Will try again later tonight, but for now, here's my progressed file that I'd appreciate more review of.

When I was trying to take screenshots I noticed that some people I gave 2 resources, some people 3, so I still have some balancing to do on the starts.

[RefSteel]

Some specific notes on C1: These are from a cursory look and get briefer as I go on. The only strategic resources I paid any attention to were the first three, due to time constraints. I also don't have a good sense for just how much variance in starts and/or realistic opportunity is considered acceptable here. Anyway, here goes:

Japan's start is basically not playable. 2nd-ring Rice + Coast Clams, near the end of the long peninsula, and the only food at the far end of that peninsula are two fish, of which at least one must be orphaned since each can be reached only be a city on a specific tile, and those two tiles (one of which is ON the gems) are just two tiles apart. Also they're alone on a relatively small island with no land food except that one rice (just some FPs) and with (deceptively) terrible island access. Maybe change the rice to a corn, add a one-tile island 4N-1E of the gems, and add another land tile or two south and/or west of the capital where they could legally settle another city? (And ideally placed so that failing to settle exactly 3W wouldn't orphan a fish...) And presumably add a 3rd resource if 3 is going to be standard.

Mongolia's capital food (off-river sheep + 2nd-turn coast crab) is almost as bad, but they have a bigger home island, better island access, and no remotely close neighbors apart from poor Japan. Might be okay by the extremely loose balance standards for a map of this type if Japan is fixed as above, I guess? Maybe make the sheep a pig though (and add a third resource if that's something you're doing). Also they have no horses, so add one of those somewhere nearby.

Rome's capital is the best of these three western civs, but/except they have no river. And it gets way better if they move 1E (and they might even LiPing it to the grassland E-NE, getting gold into the BFC, depending on how they scout). They also have probably the best of the three home islands and are generally isolated. The changes above to Japan might help with this some (more chance for Japan to contest the Roman home island a little? If contesting from an off-shore capital is somehow a real thing?) - especially the part about near-total isolation. Their unmoved capital is another one with just two (food) resources, and they have no close horses until they settle the nearest island.

The little inland sea between France and Azteca (that you created by adding a second land bridge) is exactly one tile too small to allow boats to be built on it except for a city on one of the four tiles (up to two cities total) on the Aztec side that are also on the ocean (and could act as a canal). I don't know if this is a problem though.

France has the only inland start, has just two resources, and none of their iron is close. Their position overall seems very strong to me, partly because they have land expansion options in all directions.

The Aztecs have no close iron and their horses, though not really contested, are pretty far away too. Note they not only have three food resources, all three plus a coast fish are in range of the plains hill marble, to which they should definitely move for the 3h plant alone. (It coincidentally also moves them closer to the land bridges to France.) Maybe switch the marble with the nearest iron?

HRE's two food resources are almost as bad as the Mongols' though not as bad as Japan's. Otherwise, they seem okay, I think? By the don't-balance-much standards, I mean.

Germany is off-river, and has three food resources, none of them above 5 foodhammers. Moving 1SE gives up a turn and a plains hill plant, but goes riverside, gets lots more land tiles (mostly riverside) and adds the pigs, losing nothing but coast. I'd probably do it with map knowledge, but they can't see the pigs on T0. Their iron's pretty far away though not really contested. I'd recommend swapping their start tile (including plains hill vs grass hill) with the tile 1SE and then deleting their corn (or replacing it with iron) to eep them at "just" three resources. Overall, their map position looks strong. (Maybe second to France.)

Mali has three resources, but two of them are coast crabs and the last is dry corn. I'd move the corn to the river grassland tile NW-W of the capital. Iron and especially horses are not very close, though not really contested (like Germany's iron).

China has just two food resources, of which one is second-ring seafood and the other is a plains cow. Their iron, typically for this continent, is kind of far, though much closer to them than to any neighbor. I don't want to call this one uncontested since they have to expand in a lot more different land directions than the previous two civs.

The Zulu have three food resources plus other strong capital tiles, but their only remotely accessible copper is far away and on an island.

[Mardoc]

Ref, thanks for the detailed feedback!  Cursory look is about the level I'm aiming for of balance - if there are obvious problems they should be observable from a cursory look after all.  

I took almost all your suggestions.  Decided to bump everyone up to three foods instead of down to two.  Also instead of moving Germany I just gave them a bunch more BFC land, and swapped their corn and wheat tiles.  And moved the tempting pig further away.

Also went a bit further: carved a couple straits into Rome and France to make part of their continents a little more contestable - off shore islands still should be more their sphere of influence than not, unless one of their neighbors is more desperate than they are and gets there first.

I still haven't figured out how to get Beyond the Sword normal screenshots to work again...but I remembered it's possible to screenshot -paste into Paint - save.  Would drive me up a wall if I were trying to report a game with this method but for just getting a game launched, it should be adequate.

Already learned one thing by comparing these all next to each other - I'm still inconsistent in Calendar resources.  Need to either move them away from everyone's capital, or add them to everyone.  Think I'm going to give everyone a Calendar something or other; only need to add them to Japan, Germany, and Rome (and possibly delete one source from China).

Any other suggestions?  I'm aiming to publish these to the threads in about five hours; I do have time to make additional edits.

Player 1 "China":


Player 2: "HRE"


Player 3 "Aztec"


Player 4 "Mongols"


Player 5 "Japan"


Player 6 "Germany"


Player 7 "France"


Player 8 "Zulu"


Player 9 "Rome"


Player 10 "Mali"

[RefSteel]

Something I should have said last night:  Saltwater shellfish make for late, slow food:  It's rarely worth even connecting them before the first Settler.  "France" (Player 7) definitely has the best start here, and only needs one tech (hunting) to hook everything up, all of which will be compounded by their potential land advantage.  "HRE" (Player 2) also has a much better capital than most with three land foodhammer tiles, and "Germany" (Player 6) with two agri land food is likewise strong compared to all the seafood players.  "China" (Player 1 - turns out there is another inland start) is harder to evaluate:  Their best tile is worse than any other player's, and they're clearly worse off than players 7, 2, and 6, but the double lake clams, combined with the size of the map, probably more than catches them up with the lesser starts.

Also, from looking at the map last night:  Some but not all players have copper or horses in their BFCs.  I don't like having either at the capital (later strategics, even including iron, are fine) but when some capitals have one it and others don't, the "haves" have a big advantage over the "have-nots" - probably a bigger advantage than an extra saltwater clam or crab.

Answering one of my own implied questions from last night:  Yes, contesting someone else's home island from overseas is a real possibility for land significantly closer to the overseas capital, if played correctly.  So that's a good thing and potentially interesting!

[Mardoc]

Something I should have said last night:  Saltwater shellfish make for late, slow food:  It's rarely worth even connecting them before the first Settler.

Do you think that replacing them with Fish would make them worthwhile, or should I abandon the Fishing resources altogether for starts and replace everyone's resources with land resources?

Alternately, I guess I could reverse course and give seafood to France / HRE in place of their weaker land resources (in France's case, expanding their lake and/or connecting it to a nearby sea).  I do want to encourage people to research toward navies and build coastal ASAP, given the test nature of the game.

Also, from looking at the map last night:  Some but not all players have copper or horses in their BFCs.  I don't like having either at the capital (later strategics, even including iron, are fine) but when some capitals have one it and others don't, the "haves" have a big advantage over the "have-nots" - probably a bigger advantage than an extra saltwater clam or crab.

Good catch.  I had been thinking in terms of adding, not removing, when I checked strategics.  Now shuffled those a handful of tiles further away. I don't think it will be as important on a map this big, but it's still probably better to make them work a little.

Answering one of my own implied questions from last night:  Yes, contesting someone else's home island from overseas is a real possibility for land significantly closer to the overseas capital, if played correctly.  So that's a good thing and potentially interesting!

It helps a lot with balance when I can expect the players to contest the good stuff .

[RefSteel]

Do you think that replacing them with Fish would make them worthwhile, or should I abandon the Fishing resources altogether for starts and replace everyone's resources with land resources?

I would make sure everyone has two land food (or a land food and a lake fish) to speed up the early game. Saltwater fish (or lake clams/crabs) are probably within reasonable variance with a third land food as long as the two land food tiles have the same tech requirement as one another. (I think.) That said, you're the mapmaker, and I'm slow (and still apparently the only one) to respond, so....