Endurance and Holy Armor

[Nelphine]

I'd honestly leave it at 65. The move is by far the main piece of that, because it's so easy to get pathfinding on at least one unit in the group (or flying ships or windwalking, or even just flight on the unit).

Land linking is also specifically for summons where you can't stack nearly as much.

[Seravy]

Still not a fan of the idea of having no cheap defense buff one can thrown on their early game units like swordsmen and whatnot. Holy Armor at +1 To Def won't be effective enough for such units, regardless of costs, while Endurance will be too expansive to even consider for them (at 65, but even at 50 it's kinda steep).
Leaving combat aside, this is even true for overland.
Overall it feels like both spells getting nerfed for the early game, unless you have both in which case nothing changes.

...how about having the best of both worlds?

Holy Armor
Cost 8/40
Grants +1 To defend to the enchanted unit. If the unit has 5 or lower defense, it instead gains 2 defense.

(might as well make Holy Weapon do the same for attack although that's not so trivial because a unit can have two different types of attacks that might be both affected by melee To Hit.)

[Seravy]

Also, while individually I'm ok with 40 for Holy Weapon and Holy Armor, 50 to 60 for Endurance, but that makes the cost of a buffed unit overall 15-25 cheaper (5-15 if Holy Weapon not included) so it ends up being a buff to mono-Life. (which isn't necessarily bad, as their early game is not that great. Super buffed units are good but ultimately they still costs 3-4 times as much as a summon in another realm, and the game has quite a few counters to them in the form of poison now.)

[Hadriex]

Seems fine to me.

[Seravy]

Everyone seems to agree on this so I guess it's time to implement it.

Let's summarize...
Endurance loses +1 to defend, gains +2 defense
Holy Armor loses +2 defense, gains +1 to defend
Help needs to be updated
AI casting of both spells overland needs to be updated
AI casting of Holy Armor in combat needs to be updated
Cost of Holy Armor to 40, Holy Weapon to 40, Endurance to...idk, 60? 

...although, I have no idea how we ended up buffing the realm when we started with "Life is too powerful". Let's face it, overall cheaper buffing costs, no major change in dispel chance (that would need cost to be 50/50!), and Life never really cared about putting buffs on a summon until Archangel. Oh and we can put the "+1 To Def" back on the heroes after a dispel.

Are we 100% sure we want this? While it does nerf Life mixed with other realms, it seems to buff Life when played by itself, and also possibly nerf AI (which is more reliant on Endurance on their summons).

[zitro1987]

I don't think mono-life is that outstanding with the early spells. In fact, I find it among the toughest to play very early on. I think life gets overpowered later in game. This change rewards with a good-enough buff for early summons (where +2 armor tends to be stronger) but weakens the very powerful effect on later summons slightly.


But in fewer words, I think it would improve gameplay.

[Nelphine]

So put the cost at both holy armor and weapons at 45. (Recall original total of all 3 was 155), and endurance at 65.
Now it's the same cost. The prices are all close enough that it's reasonable to just try it, and see if there's any major issues. I know I'd still cast endurance if it cost 80 and only gave the movement.

[jhsidi]

I just realized there was a poll at the start of this post. I'd scrolled past it 20 times and never noticed it.

After all the discussion, I still think it's a good change. Some of the hesitation is maybe just because it doesn't feel like it's hugely significant? And it isn't -- but small improvements are probably a big deal for all of us who have played MoM a zillion times now.

Re: mono life being underpowered, it doesn't feel that way to me. I'll try giving it a run, but I feel like last several times I did I was seriously streamrolling (with specialist + runemaster to avoid all my pretty buffs being dispelled).

[Bahgtru]

Life (mono or not) is among the easiest to play what are you guys talking about. It definitely doesn't need a buff.