Test games played

[Nelphine]

I'd be ok with death immunity on chaos spawn, but I don't think that's a good answer for the rest. 

The problem isn't that ghouls are overpowered. The problem is that they're the best method of creating undead that death ever gets.

If you make things immune to undead creation, that means everything else death has that creates undead will also be weaker. If undead is meant to be a core theme, that defeats the whole purpose.

The solution is not to make more things immune to becoming undead - it's to make a later unit or ability better at than ghouls. And since we can't make anything better than ghouls currently, that means we need to make ghouls (and zombies) worse at it, so that later abilities become better by comparison.

[jhsidi]

Conclusion -- For me, the problem isn't so much that ghouls are overpowered.. usually, they're not. It's that 1) I can raise Very Rare creatures early in the game as undead,

That's easy to address then. I'm already planning to add "Undeath Immunity" as an ability for werewolves, adding it to the specific creatures you mention, or at least a few of them where it makes most sense, would solve all the ghoul problems forever. 

Wait.. what's the goal here, exactly? Is it just to ensure that a strategy that's semi-viable now becomes completely unviable? That's unfortunate, because when it works, it's fun. Feels a bit like crushing that satisfyingly unbalanced core of MoM.

The comment we're (pretty unanimously) making is that it feels unsatisfying to use ghouls for this, solely because they're Common. If you're just gimping ghouls or ensuring they can't raise anything with real strategic use, but not replacing the ghouls, that feels like a loss and better off leaving it the way it is.

My favored solution would be to gimp ghouls a bit -- either lowering their ranged attack or removing it and buffing their hand to hand -- but also adding more reliable raise undead capabilities to Death creatures at the Uncommon, Rare and Very Rare tiers.

Btw, in that test game I ended up raising, by 1406 or so: 2 Djinn, 1 Hydra, 3 Great Lizards, 3 Chaos Spawn, 3 Chimera, 5 Gargoyles, 1 Werewolves. Would have gotten more if not for the new ban on Black Sleep. Not counting common tier stuff. If all the more powerful bits in that variety pack had bans against becoming undead.. well, I probably wouldn't play Death at all, tbh. Not sure I like the Black Sleep ban either, it feels like an arbitrary cut from Death's portfolio.

[Nelphine]

Agreed. It's amazing to get rare and very rare and regenerating units as undead. The problem is that the best way to get them is with ghouls.

This doesn't mean stop it from happening. It means make it so that ghouls aren't the best. Make it so you need to research something and actually improve your undead creation.

[Bahgtru]

But Nelphine, that approach makes it completely unviable. The fun/strategic useful part is getting the critters early (IF you're lucky enough to find viable ones), the cost of this fun is that 50-70% of the times (in lunatic) you lose.

Rather, make ghouls more difficult to use, leaving their undead creation untouched. So it lowers the abuse but not the fun. More below...

Wait.. what's the goal here, exactly? Is it just to ensure that a strategy that's semi-viable now becomes completely unviable? That's unfortunate,because when it works, it's fun. Feels a bit like crushing that satisfyingly unbalanced core of MoM.

The comment we're (pretty unanimously) making is that it feels unsatisfying to use ghouls for this, solely because they're Common. If you're just gimping ghouls or ensuring they can't raise anything with real strategic use, but not replacing the ghouls, that feels like a loss and better off leaving it the way it is.

My favored solution would be to gimp ghouls a bit -- either lowering their ranged attack or removing it and buffing their hand to hand -- but also adding more reliable raise undead capabilities to Death creatures at the Uncommon, Rare and Very Rare tiers.

Btw, in that test game I ended up raising, by 1406 or so: 2 Djinn, 1 Hydra, 3 Great Lizards, 3 Chaos Spawn, 3 Chimera, 5 Gargoyles, 1 Werewolves. Would have gotten more if not for the new ban on Black Sleep. Not counting common tier stuff. If all the more powerful bits in that variety pack had bans against becoming undead.. well, I probably wouldn't play Death at all, tbh. Not sure I like the Black Sleep ban either, it feels like an arbitrary cut from Death's portfolio.

Agreed on the analysis, not on the solution. Ranged 2 wouldn't change much tbh, after FM that's a -20% dmg change, which amounts to nothing when you need to use other tricks (spells, etc) anyway.

A way to make ghouls more difficult and satisfying is to get rid of the ranged attack completely. Convert them from ranged into a breath creature ( I considered touch, but with FM we're back at step one). Ghouls have a miasma cloud in some fantasy settings, so it works for flavour.

Having to use their breath transforms them into a hand to hand creature. That really raises the difficulty to use them! Compare with warbears... To balance this, they might cost less, be more resilient, or a combination.

[Seravy]

I don't think that it's even necessary on WWs as they can have bloodlust which already makes them immune, and against death spellbook wizards it should be prioritised which would solve the minor issue.

The AI doesn't use on-demand casting for Blood Lust. They cast it a random quantity based on personality and effects (Divine Order!) like any other buff spell. Furthermore the AI doesn't use accelerated reserch tactics for Blood Lust - there will be a 30-50 turn gap between the two spells at the very least, I thought I explained this?

The problem isn't that ghouls are overpowered. The problem is that they're the best method of creating undead that death ever gets.

This is not true. I used them and they were vastly inferior to using zombies. (I mean the common summon zombie, not the mastery)

Wait.. what's the goal here, exactly?

We don't want Death AI's to shoot themselves into the foot by giving the player werewolves to raise. This is a problem, I explained plenty of times why.
Undeath Immunity won't be a common thing, ideally only werewolves get it, or if anything is a particular unfixable problem for ghouls than that. Let's face it, werewolves weren't intended to be raised as undead to begin with, but removal of Death Immunity opened this problem. So we have to do something about that.
I seriously doubt raising Chaos Spawn using Ghouls is a problem though. Now that they have 12 resistance and always had high defense, doing so would be very hard to do, and now that undead chaos spawn aren't immune to reaper slash, they aren't an "I win " button against death wizards. (sorcery, chaos and life could already damage them and damage to undead is permanent. )
Hydra and Djinn are more worrisome, especially the latter but since it's a gamble on the AI's decision, I can't imagine it becoming a widespread game ruining strategy. So 95% chance we don't need to add Undeath Immunity to anything but werewolves.

(or, we can just give their death immunity back, but then we are back to the "werewolves are too powerful" topic.)

2 Djinn, 1 Hydra, 3 Great Lizards, 3 Chaos Spawn, 3 Chimera, 5 Gargoyles, 1 Werewolves.

Ok that's worrisome. Question is, how reliable is this? I think you said once out of 3 games and the other two were losses? If yes, then I'm fine with that, no need to do anything about it.
(although the hydra is a problem as it regenerates and can't be killed by uncommon spells or units, unlike the rest...)

But Nelphine, that approach makes it completely unviable. The fun/strategic useful part is getting the critters early (IF you're lucky enough to find viable ones), the cost of this fun is that 50-70% of the times (in lunatic) you lose.

If that's the actual win ratio of ghouls then they are already perfectly balanced... (and honestly, I risk the statement this is somewhat difficulty independent - you'd still lose 50%+ on Expert as well.)

So... to make this clear I don't think ghouls need a nerf in particular. (why would I, when I just concluded they are bottom tier unless you get extra lucky on your map)
Undead generation needing a nerf in general is a different story, but I think that's mostly fine too - as long as we manage to keep the most problematic interactions under control. Werewolves and Black Sleep in particular are where I feel there will/might be problems. The former I'm 100% sure about, the latter I'm 50-50.
I also agree with Zitro on that undead creation doesn't really peak at common, he had a good post explaining why somewhere. (maybe the wolves thread?)

[Bahgtru]

But Nelphine, that approach makes it completely unviable. The fun/strategic useful part is getting the critters early (IF you're lucky enough to find viable ones), the cost of this fun is that 50-70% of the times (in lunatic) you lose.

If that's the actual win ratio of ghouls then they are already perfectly balanced... (and honestly, I risk the statement this is somewhat difficulty independent - you'd still lose 50%+ on Expert as well.)

So... to make this clear I don't think ghouls need a nerf in particular. (why would I, when I just concluded they are bottom tier unless you get extra lucky on your map)
Undead generation needing a nerf in general is a different story, but I think that's mostly fine too - as long as we manage to keep the most problematic interactions under control. Werewolves and Black Sleep in particular are where I feel there will/might be problems. The former I'm 100% sure about, the latter I'm 50-50.

Ghouls is definitely not for the newbie as a strategy. That's what I meant for brittle. You shouldn't lose a single one for the first 4-5 years.

[Seravy]

btw for Djinn AI in particular, I think a simple rule like

If caster is Djinn type unit and enemy army contains 5 or more Ghoul type units, magic immunity priority = ultra high.

might be good enough. I don't think anyone would intentionally add 5 ghouls to their stack of whatever else just to avoid the djinn using their MP on... idk, the best they can do is Psionic Blast+AEther Sparks, even using their normal ranged attack does better than that. I mean, Magic Immunity is kinda the strongest move they have anyway, Invisibility might compete but that's about it. I guess they can dispel so ghouls could protect a buffed stack or hero? But you aren't very likely to be having Ghouls in a buff strategy, not impossible but kinda unlikely. And the ghouls would cost you 440, for that you can just ignore the dispel and recast your buffs...
or am I overlooking something?

[zitro1987]

Given that reducing the ghoul ranged attack is a no-go (probably due to its mediocre fighting abilities for its cost), I do think the best idea may instead be looking at the 'easy' and worrisome things you can raise as undead:

werewolves? they can't be raised as undead, problem solved
hydra? regeneration of 7
tough units with lower resistance? black sleep invalidates undead creation
djinn? magic immunity casting
Efreet? actually, they kill ghouls with relative ease.

Great lizards are a remaining issue - they should not be easy to raise as undead as they regenerate. It may be awkward, but I think this one should also qualify as not being possible to create undead?
Chaos spawn may not regenerate, but in many cases, they never get hurt when you use them, and you can take advantage of black prayer with them. I did game-breaking stuff with just 1 I raised early in game. Given how easy you can kill these with ghouls, this is the last remaining problem.

Undead creation does not peak at common assuming we are partially taking care of the early abuses. Once you have syphon life, you can raise an undead unit independent of your army (and spellcasting heroes can help). Once you have wraiths + black prayer, you can raise undead with a 5! speed unit. But best of all, once you have the 'demon' spell and focus magic, you can cast 18 syphon-life in 2 turns!! (bonus if playing with astrologer)

Not as effective, but with black prayer + wizard's guild, you can mass-produce magician armies, send them to lairs (nodes if astrologer), and spam life drains at -7 resist

[Seravy]

I don't think great lizards are an issue. Yes, they regenerate, same as the wolves, but they aren't summoned early by AI wizards, nor do they counter the wizard you have taken them from. By then, AIs should have access to regeneration counters, and lizards are extra vulnerable to them due to being single figure. Even though they have 7 resistance, they only need to lose 1 resistance roll to disappear compared to the 4-6 of the wolves.
I've raised undead lizards before and they are great stuff, but nowhere near gamebreaking level good.

Chaos Spawns, if easy, are a problem but are they? At 12 resistance they are completely immune to poison and even with Black Prayer they only take 0.1 damage per hit from it. At 8 defense, they should generally take no damage at all from 3 ranged, and even with focus magic they... wait these only have 7 defense!

Maybe raising Chaos Spawn defense could be something to consider? Although no they are fairly critical to the game balance of various ranged unit treasure hunting strategies, so we can't.

Actually, I would expect a monster like that to have Death Immunity. It's a freaking beholder that attacks with DEATH gaze. So if we can agree on that, I can add Death Immunity to these. Would give Chaos something that's useful against Death and helps an underused monster. At 12 resistance it wouldn't be a major difference to the Death realm either way - and we now have tools to overcome death immunity too. I guess we'll lose the ability to convert them through Syphon Life (zombies can't do it anyway), a bit sad but...why would a Death wizard want a chaos spawn? Summon a Night Stalker, it has Death Gaze and it's harder to kill. 

I'd also like to add that low resistance things are naturally weak to the ghoul's poison, so sleep is a non-issue...wait a second. Actually no, it isn't. Sleep raises damage taken massively so it completely cancels the greatest weakness of ghouls - limited ammo. A sleeping unit takes only 2 shots to kill while a nonsleeping one would take like a dozen.

Okay, I'm leaning towards keeping the sleep nerf right now.

(by the way if we want to take an extra step in that direction, we can make Chaos Spawn also immune to poison, disabling Reaper Slash and making them a very strong Death counter in Chaos - which might be a good idea as Chaos is quite awful against Death and it's the only realm which didn't get any help in that regard.)

[jhsidi]

I don't get the recurrence of the "zombies are better than ghouls" thing. No. Not even with black sleep. Because black sleep is a luck-based spell, and if I'm casting it, then I'm not casting other things that would be useful.

Wraiths are not reliably producers of undead. Unless I've misinterpreted my results with wraiths, they are poor for raising anything with high resistance. So yes for (some) city troops, no for almost everything I want.

Have you guys actually played ghouls with focus magic? I'm not sure it's really a big deal at this point. But again, this list: "2 Djinn, 1 Hydra, 3 Great Lizards, 3 Chaos Spawn, 3 Chimera, 5 Gargoyles, 1 Werewolves" -- was *all* raised with one stack of 6 Focus Magic ghouls. They've got 7 ranged. It's plenty to hack away the health of a high defense unit, and resistance is irrelevant.

Without Focus Magic, ghouls are poor to the point of being unusable, unless you're fighting a low resistance race like High Men. With Focus Magic, they are, again, the only reliable strategy for raising useful undead.

But I think you guys on the other side are focused on using ghouls to fight other wizards, and concerned about things like other wizards with a werewolves strategy getting countered by ghouls. Again.. ghouls can be countered in a lot of ways by enemy wizards. My 6 stack of Focus Magic ghouls couldn't even face off against a couple measly sprites -- because they can't tolerate losses.

Losing black sleep as a method to create undead is a pity, and I'm still not sure why it has been removed -- was it responsible for something game breaking?

Anyway, the loss of Death Immunity in werewolves seems to have caused far, far more trouble than it's worth so why not just add it back? Seems like it's a case of tweaking one unit and as a result having to knock over the entire house of cards that a strategy is built on.