[Spoilers] Gröt and Bänzai lose several screws assembling a Sweedish Strategy

[Banzailizard]

Ok here is my dot map.  My suggestion is move the settler with the berserker to the teal spot (basically Riga) and then onto capturing Apuloe with our full force.  No sense risking losing both the city and units half assing it. The second city should be the green dot, maybe move it north east one tile, and move the red dot north allowing for a city along the Carpathians like you have.  Third should be Blue for Lux, Yellow for iron, Orange for naval attacks.  That gives us the control of the Dnieper and that is the best part of Russia.  Back fill in from there.

After we grab Apuloe we can chose to either grab Wolin or turn around.  Depends what Danemark does. If they go hard at Wolin we can go east, if not let's grab Wolin.  The salt is a much needed Lux. Danemark needs the Lux too from my testing.

Get the archer for the boost. Builder back in our capital maybe? We can sail him across without much fuss, and do not need him until we get Lux to improve.  Let's save the chopping for a little bit like you said.

Edit: Looking at your dot map now looks like we independently arrived at the same conclusion.

[Grotsnot]

All right, lurkers, Banzai and I were on steam at the same time to go through Turn 1 together. Hopefully can be a regular thing

So here's a summary!

Let's go ahead and start with what our opponents have been up to:









So we can see that Denmark has put Thetford under siege, pillaged a Holy Site or a Monastery, and killed something with a Berserker (from the GPPs). Meanwhile Norway has pillaged two HS/Mon (you can identify the HS/Mon pillaging by the 50 Religion VP) and bought a bunch of our border forests. Curse ye turn order! Banzai and I both were planning on doing that

By the pillaging, and referencing back to their starts posted earlier, they should have maxed out at the following gold:
Norway: 160 + 200
Denmark: 151 + 100




In perhaps a stroke of good fortune, neither is going whole hog saving for GA money. Though they both start with Longships to get GAPs so we'll see. Norway will still probably get there first but we can only hope this is a sign they aren't planning on gold-rushing until they're almost there.

Denmark is down to 26, meaning they spent in the neighborhood of 225 gold. One suspicion we had is that they bought a Trader @90 in Roskilde since that city is a 2-tile garbage dump without a domestic TR for If I had to hazard a guess, I would expect the other money to be accounted for by an Archer, maybe for Portage? Hard to say. Which would cost 120 There isn't anything that lines up nicely for 135.
Ah! Ok so I loaded up a Denmark game and due to Traders scaling based on Tech/Civics, it costs 105 after killing a dude with a Berserker. So a 105 Trader + 120 Archer lines up nicely.
Also, from that sim here's a hypothesis for how Thetford is going:

As for Norway, looks like they've spent 345. Actually, 370. When I simmed them, turns out pillaging that Scottish sheep tile gives +50 Religion VP after all. Not sure what's up with that... not like Dun Breatann is even Religious. Anyway it means they probably got an additional 25 from pillage.
In the sim I was able to get down to 10 by buying a 90:gold Trader, an Archer, and those 5 tiles along our border. Not sure which else they pillaged since Northern England exposes them to a crapton of coastal fire. Too bad Scores don't show military strength to see if it gets shot dead

Also, as expected, they both sent their Traders to our Capital - since it's the only starting city with both a Harbor and CH it's worth 9gpt

---

Anyway here's what we did, I think roughly follows the plan I laid out previously:













We decided on heading towards Riga for our starting Settler and throw everything into pillaging & seizing Apuole. Here's the game plan for the next couple turns:


Our Berserkers will all be within Apuole's borders on T3 ready to beat shit up afterward. The northwest tip guy is gonna have to soak a hit or 3 but can heal with that Farm and still have a movement point left over to advance on the city. Our starting Archer is making a brief stop in Gotland (huzzah no embark/disembark costs!) to check if Apuole was dumb enough to put any units in the water. If so he'll take a potshot if not continue northward, staying out of range. Apuole's Walls aren't that strong but still beat the hell out of embarked troops.

[Grotsnot]

Sorry for the lack of updates, lurkers. Banzailizard and I have been going through the turns together on Steam so hasn't much pressing strategizing to post here. I have a bunch of screenshots from turns 2 and 3 to post once I make the time for it. This week has been busy so far.

[Ituralde]

Would love to see what you guys have been getting upt to!

[Banzailizard]

I'll try to save the logs and post them here under spoiler next time.

[Ituralde]

No worries. I'd settle for the screenshots if you're pressed for time.

[Banzailizard]

Damn somehow my logs got lost last night.  I know Grot has more and he has screenshots.

A really basic summary of where we are though is we are working on taking Apuole.  Next turn we should have 6 total longships in the warer, and we will chop out some settlers soon thereafter fill up part of Russia, produce bezerkers, then down to the ERE.

We want to capture Wolin but looks like the Danes will get there first.  To be cheaky we set a longships next to Wolin to make a threat to snipe it.

[Grotsnot]

All right, sorry lurkers, I've got some catching up to do! I'll get it done but gonna take it piece by piece

Let's start with Turn 2. I've got our chat transcript interspersed with the corresponding sections of the turn.

Firstly, our opponents:
Norway and Denmark off to an early lead with their pillaging




The Danes did build a Harbor in Odense! Bumps our trade routes up to +1/+9 - I wonder if the Norwegians wish they'd gone to Odense instead - we have little reason to build an Encampment so they traded off a bunch of production for 6  

Banzailizard joined the chat.
Banzailizard: ok
Grotsnot: hey hey
Grotsnot: should be a quick turn I think
Banzailizard: yes, I think we mostly know what we are doing for the next 2 or 3 turns
Grotsnot: right
Grotsnot: oh hey it loaded
Grotsnot: damn norway
Banzailizard: can you take a screenshot of that
Banzailizard: looks like south england will fall
Grotsnot: yeah I take them pretty liberally
Grotsnot: so looks like probably not more spending
Banzailizard: 333 is quite a bit
Grotsnot: oh wait gossip
Banzailizard: we get more consistent but wow that is a lot from raiding
Grotsnot: oh bitchin harbor in odense
Banzailizard: gives us what +2 gold?
Grotsnot: +9gpt trade routes already
Banzailizard: +3?
Grotsnot: yeah
Banzailizard: ah good
Grotsnot: that is a lot of pillaging
Banzailizard: they start with 3 long ships and the extra movement
Banzailizard: its their main sourse of VP and gold
Grotsnot: yuuuup
Grotsnot: I wonder why we get Norway's Policy choices but not Denmarks
Banzailizard: no idea
Grotsnot: we should have higher access to Denmark I think
Banzailizard: both are sending trade to us
Grotsnot: yeah but I think it's 1-way
Banzailizard: yeah we should have more for Danemark
Grotsnot: let's see...
Grotsnot: Roskilde and Nidaros both grew
Banzailizard: do we all have the same pantheon of odin?
Grotsnot: yeah
Banzailizard: or do we each have a slightly diffrent one?
Grotsnot: it doesn't show us where they put Odense's Harbor yet
Grotsnot: all the same
Banzailizard: yes it does
Banzailizard: right beween the encampent and the CD
Grotsnot: oh wait there it is
Banzailizard: CH*
Grotsnot: yeah
Grotsnot: odd choice
Grotsnot: I guess it's next to a CH but I dunno why not next to the CC
Banzailizard: I think there is a resourse there
Grotsnot: loses a move getting out to sea
Banzailizard: which gives +1
Grotsnot: ohh so there is
Grotsnot: map doesn't show but yield hover does
Grotsnot: I'd have been tempted to buy a tile and put it on the western side of jutland
Banzailizard: not sure it would work
Banzailizard: I think you have to have contiguous ability to work along the path
Banzailizard: so the would need that swamp from Utrecht
Grotsnot: oh might need utrecht first because of the encampment right
Grotsnot: ah well
Grotsnot: so yeah makes sense

with Denmark and Norway's Gold stocks - the gpt is not accurate here since I didn't realize at the time it was defaulting 10 instead of max. Been spoiled by CQUI





also the gossip screens

As for our cities
Kopingsvik grows, we start working the cows. Objective is to get up to 6 pop and hold there, building some Settlers along the way.


Birka has plenty of food to grow so it switches over to gold and cogs


Ladoga finishes their Harbor! And puts a turn into a Builder, since it'll switch to a Longship next turn.

Grotsnot: ok so on to us?
Grotsnot: Builder turn in Ladoga, right? They'll switch over to a boat next turn
Banzailizard: sure
Grotsnot: but can use the +30% card while it's on
Banzailizard: its a production bonus so its not like we loose the extra production
Grotsnot: alternative would be Harbor Shipping I guess? Dunno when we'd get around to finishing it
Banzailizard: we will want a builder eventually
Grotsnot: ok Builder it is then
Grotsnot: we have two forests in Ladoga currently so one option for the initial builder is to pasture a sheep for Riga (which saves a turn on their b[oat)]
Grotsnot: oh right they want to grow next turn for boat timing
Grotsnot: turn after next*
Banzailizard: what would we chop into at this point anyways?
Grotsnot: Maritime :ongship->Settler?
Banzailizard: kk
Grotsnot: it's enough turns down the road that we'll have both researched
Grotsnot: thoughts on cow vs plains? The cap can go up to size 6 before getting mad due to the Palace
Banzailizard: would swaping for production from fish help?
Banzailizard: help get the archer out faster I mean
Grotsnot: not sure about immediate but over time I think so
Banzailizard: hmm
Grotsnot: like it doesn't save a turn on the archer but the overflow can help with other stuff
Banzailizard: I think the production is more useful for right now, our issue is not enough units and such
Grotsnot: 1cog/turn is more valuable than 1gpt, isn't it?
Grotsnot: yeah
Grotsnot: so next question is whether we want to start delaying growth already
Grotsnot: plains get same production but we have the option to grow soon to much later
Grotsnot: 3/4/6/16 turns
Banzailizard: No I think its fine for now we need units and getting more production out is helpful.  We can build settlers to cut back pop if needed late
Banzailizard: we could also work the CH for gold if needed
Grotsnot: ok so sticking to 3 then
Grotsnot: ah good point I keep forgetting that
Grotsnot: what is it +4?
Banzailizard: I think
Grotsnot: yeah
Grotsnot: harbor is also a semi-decent starve tile
Grotsnot: 1sci/2gold
Grotsnot: neither gives cogs sadly
Banzailizard: ok leave as is
Banzailizard: let's get the archer done
Banzailizard: hmm
Grotsnot: Birka grows regardless
Banzailizard: 1 science or 2 gold
Banzailizard: we could work the copper
Grotsnot: oh yeah that is probably better
Grotsnot: marginal science isn't particularly valuable in VTR I suspect
Banzailizard: if it grows regardless lets do that then
Grotsnot: cool cool
Grotsnot: it might slow a downstream growth slightly but I think we don't mind that
Grotsnot: and might even be desirable
Grotsnot: ok so I think cities are all set? Anything left but Military?
Banzailizard: do we want to boose grwoth in Ladoga?
Grotsnot: oh right GP screencap
Banzailizard: boost*
Grotsnot: no more kills, interesting
Grotsnot: uhh I think I did and it just doesn't update the top-view UI let's see
Grotsnot: yeah 2t is the best we can squeeze
Grotsnot: it's like 1 food away
Banzailizard: kk
Banzailizard: the production is better then
Grotsnot: agreed
Grotsnot: grabbing some screenshots
Banzailizard: np

On the military front, we get lucky and Apu puts their Pikeman in the water! Our Archer plinks off a big chunk

Banzailizard: what do the relgions do anyways?
Grotsnot: not much
Grotsnot: conquering an AI capital gives +4 faith from Divine Inspiration
Banzailizard: what does islam do not that we can adopt
Grotsnot: and if you build all the way up to a stave church you can get a cathedral I guess
Grotsnot: very little
Grotsnot: +1 spread from Missionaries vs Great Work slot
Grotsnot: so strictly better but still worthless
Banzailizard: kk
Grotsnot: also we always get Catholicism pretty sure. Unless we did some sort of crazy shenanigans like conquer Iberia and crap out missionaries
Banzailizard: would be amusing but not helpful enough
Grotsnot: which would be funny for a SP Chronicle but pointless here
Grotsnot: yeah
Banzailizard: its like the CK2 achivement
Grotsnot: yeah!
Grotsnot: sadly [Policy] switches are not dirt cheap but still cheap relative to the amount of money we're making
Banzailizard: do bezerkers count as Melee units?
Grotsnot: fairly sure, not sure what else they'd be
Banzailizard: well we are the ones who proably need dcipline anyways
Banzailizard: kk
Grotsnot: it's just a placeholder yeah
Grotsnot: small chance of finding one in Russia before finishing Harbors
Banzailizard: harbors causes them to spawn?
Grotsnot: 3 Harbors gets us Maritime
Banzailizard: ah
Banzailizard: oklet's wrap up the military
Grotsnot: oky doky
Grotsnot: diagram from the thread look good?
Banzailizard: yes
Grotsnot: w00t
Banzailizard: nice
Banzailizard: swordsman barb
Grotsnot: staggered em just to get a max vision 'shot
Grotsnot: and yeah
Grotsnot: easy kill
Banzailizard: which gives a boost
Banzailizard: +5 policy is worth something for now
Grotsnot: right
Grotsnot: pew pew
Grotsnot: ok I think we're done?
Banzailizard: looks like it

And some general analysis chat at the end of the turn. Includes speculation about Norway wanting roads and where they'd be sending settlers - some about where we should send ours

Grotsnot: ooo +41 [gpt]
Banzailizard: from the copper
Banzailizard: mead halls next?
Grotsnot: yeah I think so
Grotsnot: interesting
Grotsnot: Roskilde->Kopingsvik
Grotsnot: took gold over cogs
Banzailizard: guess they think thye need the gold for armies
Grotsnot: yeah makes sense
Grotsnot: also Norway going to us instead of Odense
Banzailizard: we get 9 gold for sure they get 6 and one production there
Banzailizard: we give rather
Banzailizard: we got the better deal though now 1 production 9 gold
Grotsnot: well Denmark I think goes first so Norway should have been able to get the +1cog/+9gold route
Grotsnot: maybe they want the road from Stavanger
Banzailizard: depends when the building finishes
Banzailizard: wasn't it 6 for us last turn?
Grotsnot: hopefully for Oslo to go west instead of their stuff to go east into our clay
Grotsnot: yeah it was but Denmark hadn't finished the Harbor yet
Banzailizard: right so they may have made a mistake
Banzailizard: just looked at the immediate bonus
Banzailizard: not thought about it
Grotsnot: well this is the one they bought last turn
Grotsnot: so it started this turn
Banzailizard: hmm ok
Banzailizard: so yeah they want that road
Grotsnot: so either missed the cog or value the road over it
Grotsnot: right
Grotsnot: Oslo does get some milage out of it for land units
Banzailizard: I'll run a test tonight see how long it takes me to get settlers to the east if that is what they want to try
Grotsnot: don't have to deal with the traffic around Jutland
Banzailizard: they are better off settling ireland though and the north than racing us for russia
Grotsnot: I see the AI norway go for lapland a lot
Grotsnot: get an Iron
Banzailizard: ah possibly
Banzailizard: we might want to grab southern finnland
Grotsnot: not something I expect a human to do though since other than the forests it's kind of a shithole
Banzailizard: chopping out settlers sounds better and better
Banzailizard: ah but with chops those forests are great
Grotsnot: invisible Iron up there
Grotsnot: and deer
Grotsnot: so yeah it's decent
Banzailizard: do cities on their own grant vp?
Banzailizard: or just pop?
Grotsnot: yeah, 50 I think
Grotsnot: ah 25
Grotsnot: and there's a boost from getting a settler
Grotsnot: so maybe
Grotsnot: if Ireland is too far away for an early settler
Banzailizard: they need longships and apprecticeship frist though
Grotsnot: right
Grotsnot: also mead halls
Banzailizard: right I mean before mead halls
Grotsnot: so maybe they will have eaten scotland before they need it
Grotsnot: ohh I see
Banzailizard: yeah
Banzailizard: scotland and england give much better ROI than a settler in the woods
Grotsnot: yeah
Banzailizard: they have buildings and distrcits already
Banzailizard: plus decent land
Grotsnot: settler is valuable for the boost on the path to GHA though
Grotsnot: get Rams faster
Banzailizard: yes, I think theyw ill go apprenticeship longships mead halls
Banzailizard: they need the bezerkers more they have plenty of longships
Grotsnot: so I don't see them churning out near as many as us but I'd expect 1 settler
Grotsnot: true true
Grotsnot: especially for city conquests
Banzailizard: def at least 1
Banzailizard: ivory in greenland
Grotsnot: their zerkers don't start in good position IIRC
Banzailizard: is worht it
Grotsnot: I'd go Iceland before Greenland personally
Banzailizard: yeah all back in norway
Grotsnot: closer and better hammers
Banzailizard: iceland has 1 tile I think
Grotsnot: nah that's the faeroes
Banzailizard: ah
Grotsnot: greenland is the one way out by vinland
Banzailizard: hard to get a sense of scale
Grotsnot: yeah especially without ingame vision
Grotsnot: gotta rely on screencap maps
Banzailizard: ah I looked at your maps
Banzailizard: those whales are nice
Grotsnot: yup
Banzailizard: then ivory
Grotsnot: if we wanna be dicks we could try and get a settler onto Iceland or Faeroes before them. Could backfire with them all up in our Russian cla
Grotsnot: the whales would just be nice
Banzailizard: maybe we can trade
Banzailizard: truffles for whales
Banzailizard: I am more worried about danemark tbh
Grotsnot: Archduke running a war machine yeah
Grotsnot: those Vinland VP have me worried about Norway
Grotsnot: +500 from 1st vs 2nd is big
Banzailizard: but what other VP does norway really have?
Banzailizard: Danemark has all of france and spain to conquer
Grotsnot: Norway can compete for spain
Grotsnot: there's no land route from france to spain
Grotsnot: well technically a small pass all the way south on the med coast
Banzailizard: ah
Banzailizard: by barcelona?
Grotsnot: damn the AIs are already plinking Rouen, probably a gift to Denmark
Grotsnot: yeah
Grotsnot: so I think time to pass it?
Banzailizard: ok we are good then
Grotsnot: have an EOT save in case we wanna inspect more stuff
Grotsnot: oky doky then
Grotsnot: ah dangit I was trying to snag a screencap of the trader's vision
Grotsnot: missed it
Grotsnot: don't think he saw any danes in the water though
Banzailizard: right
Banzailizard: well we canget it next turn
Grotsnot: yep
Banzailizard: and it will be more informative after their move
Grotsnot: true true
Grotsnot: ok gonna grab the transcript and quit then

With the enemy trade routes referred to:

[Grotsnot]

Turn 3!

Start things off, we finished researching Longships! So did Denmark - and they bought 3 of them right away


And the baddies continue to pull away in the in scores - lack of starting longships is dragging us down and the turn order isn't helping either We'll have to catch up by settling the bejeezus out of Russia




Thetford falls!


Opponent gold & gossip and home territory

With interspersed commentary again

Banzailizard joined the chat.
Grotsnot: you in?
Banzailizard: there we go
Grotsnot: awesome
Grotsnot: so Denmark's been spending again
Grotsnot: Longship
Banzailizard: ok
Grotsnot: norway may have spent haven't checked scores for how much pillaging yet
Banzailizard: wow that is a lot of cash
Grotsnot: yeahh
Grotsnot: I mismeasured their gpt last turn too
Grotsnot: it defaults to 10 not max
Grotsnot: how the hell do they have +40
Banzailizard: well how do we have 40
Grotsnot: they have more mil expenses than us don't they?
Banzailizard: proably a bit
Banzailizard: but maybe they are running full traders?
Grotsnot: oh yeah that could be
Banzailizard: I think they start with 2 harbors and get a third quickly
Grotsnot: would have to be running to Odense
Banzailizard: nope
Grotsnot: which is better
Banzailizard: hmm
Banzailizard: we are pretty far behind to be sure
Grotsnot: bunch of pillaging for denmark

(opponent analysis continued at the end)
no new trade routes to us

Next up, city management:
The big event: founding Riga!


Kop doesn't need to do anything, the overflow from the Archer build is sufficient to 2-turn a Longship next turn.
Birka grew, we assigned the citizen to work the farm to get their pop up for more production (and, with the benefit of hindsight, also to get Settlers). They'll finish their Harbor next turn and start on a boat.
Ladoga switches over to a Longship. Once we slot in Maritime Industries all 3 of our starting cities will have a boat due out on T6.

Grotsnot: Riga time?
Grotsnot: oh wait Birka grew
Grotsnot: whatcha think, more pop or work the iron
Banzailizard: 1 more pop is the same as lvl 3
Banzailizard: so might as well grow
Grotsnot: ok
Banzailizard: then at 4 we work the woods title
Banzailizard: and the iorn
Grotsnot: hmm, shows mead halls at 3 turns. If it's not down to 2 from Riga maybe should do the Iron
Banzailizard: ok let's see what happens then
Grotsnot: cool cool
Grotsnot: Riga or something Ikea?
Banzailizard: does the map auto name these?
Grotsnot: yeah we get a weird mix of russian and german cities
Banzailizard: also interesting it gave us 2 other tiles to make up for the 2 we could not get
Grotsnot: yep!
Banzailizard: and honestly these are better
Grotsnot: the two Apuole has are where I'd put the harbor/CH in one of my test games
Grotsnot: but yeah these are better for immediate use
Banzailizard: we'll get them
Grotsnot: yeah no rush
Grotsnot: on board for Longship build?
Banzailizard: what else would we build there at this point?
Grotsnot: it'll speed up to 4t next turn, so 5 total
Banzailizard: other than a builder but we are already producing one
Grotsnot: oh right that should switch to Longship too, I think
Grotsnot: knock out a flotilla before all the pillageables are gone
Grotsnot: wrap up the builder afterward
Banzailizard: right
Banzailizard: the AI does rebuild a bit but we want to pillage anyways
Grotsnot: yeah
Grotsnot: getting down to Iberia and the Med ASAP is probably our best bet
Grotsnot: pillage what we can along the way if there's anything left
Banzailizard: did our meadhalls get boosted enough?
Grotsnot: there's enough fishing boats to heal up
Grotsnot: yay, it did
Banzailizard: perfect

And our military begins the invasion of Apuole
Before and after:




Settling Riga got us a nice bridge for our Zerkers - allowing all 3 to start the next turn within enemy territory for that sweet, sweet +2movement. One of them will have to tank a hit from the city and possibly an archer or two, but will have the Farm it can immediately heal with and then, with the movement bonus, still advance on the city.

We also decided that we should rush out a Longship (credit to Banzai for the idea) - helps us out a bunch with Apuole and the Danes rushed out a bunch of them we have to compete with  

Grotsnot: assuming were on board for the moves
Banzailizard: yes
Grotsnot: getting them all into enemy territory is a big gain
Grotsnot: now what to do with the archer... E-NE? Camp a turn?
Banzailizard: I would say
Banzailizard: NE 1 tile then east one tile, eventually have him settle down on that farm
Grotsnot: ok cool, on the same page
Banzailizard: yes
Banzailizard: any news from our trader in denmark?
Grotsnot: oh bunches
Banzailizard: #3 is interesting
Grotsnot: the Holy Site?
Banzailizard: yes
Banzailizard: must be a repair
Grotsnot: Thetford started with it
Grotsnot: yeah
Grotsnot: you can't buy repairs can you?
Banzailizard: no
Grotsnot: I'm gonna have to load up the old save to see what their gpt last turn was, but they had 132 banked
Banzailizard: and norway?
Grotsnot: and pillaged 3 times looks like
Grotsnot: god damn that's a lot of pillage
Grotsnot: oh only 1 is actually new though
Grotsnot: so they didn't spend anything
Grotsnot: damn
Grotsnot: they had +40 gpt last turn too, mathematically
Grotsnot: +125 from the market pillage
Banzailizard: right
Banzailizard: ok
Banzailizard: was there anything else
Banzailizard: I think this was a slow turn
Grotsnot: Denmark had 432+gpt, pretty sure none of their pillage tiles gives extra gold
Grotsnot: hmm don't think so
Grotsnot: just C&D
Banzailizard: no idea about Wolin yet
Banzailizard: but it looks like they are focused on england for now
Grotsnot: so if the danes had +14 that would put them at 446 and spent whopping 370
Grotsnot: oh
Grotsnot: or +19
Grotsnot: and 375
Grotsnot: for 3 longships
Grotsnot: bastards
Banzailizard: ah
Banzailizard: right now that is ok for us
Banzailizard: it means they are compeating with Norway
Grotsnot: true
Banzailizard: thought, what if we buy a longship in  Kop
Grotsnot: danish longships don't help much with wolin at least
Grotsnot: tempting
Banzailizard: we need to put Aupole under sidge
Grotsnot: means giving up on the GA
Banzailizard: and so that means we need to occupy the sea a bit
Banzailizard: not necisarially
Banzailizard: 2 pillages pay for it
Grotsnot: we'll have one out on T6 for Apu, but yeah maybe a couple turns earlier could help?
Grotsnot: true...
Banzailizard: otherwise I do not se us taking Apoul safely
Banzailizard: and we need as few casulties to roll in on Wolin
Grotsnot: oh I think we could pillage Wolin's farm next turn
Grotsnot: right
Banzailizard: pilliage it in 2 turns
Banzailizard: turn 1 goes to seidge
Banzailizard: turn 2 when bezerkers can maintain on their own it goes to pillage
Banzailizard: ah wait
Banzailizard: maybe other way around
Grotsnot: sure, can see if the zerkers are even gonna do much next turn and go from there
Banzailizard: I didn't see how far away they were
Banzailizard: migth as well pillage then move in
Grotsnot: In test games next turn has to clean up Apu's units
Grotsnot: right
Banzailizard: that half damaged pike is a good start
Grotsnot: we wanna pillage as much as we can before taking it, honestly. The +100gold is better than taking the city a turn earlier
Banzailizard: right
Banzailizard: and the VP
Grotsnot: yeah
Banzailizard: ok so buy it?
Grotsnot: they do start on an Encampment before too long
Grotsnot: and we possibly want to beat that
Grotsnot: all right, sounds good to me. Still building more after the archer?
Banzailizard: yes
Banzailizard: buy buy for now
Grotsnot: ok buying
Banzailizard: we want to take this city asap though mostly to try and grab Wolin from danemark if we can
Grotsnot: very true
Grotsnot: so yeah buy boat is good, pillage their fishing boats sooner
Grotsnot: awesome thing about pillaging fishing boats is it doesn't end the boat's turn
Grotsnot: costs 3 move
Banzailizard: ok then I think we are good here
Grotsnot: so can be in siege pop down pillage and pop back up to siege
Banzailizard: I am going to go back to work on my final
Grotsnot: coastal pillages end turn though
Grotsnot: ahhh right
Grotsnot: ok I won't keep ya with rambles then :P
Grotsnot: good luck!
Banzailizard: I proably will not be around tomorrow
Grotsnot: ok, want me to just take the turn?
Banzailizard: if there is anything you need to ask foyeah
Banzailizard: yes
Grotsnot: ok
Banzailizard: anything you want input on for then?
Grotsnot: hmm what conditions would be worth having the boat skip the farm pillage
Banzailizard: if we can surround Apu right away
Banzailizard: but I cannot see that happening
Banzailizard: well no
Grotsnot: does seige do anything inherently?
Banzailizard: stops it from healing
Grotsnot: I thought it just prevented healing
Grotsnot: yeah
Banzailizard: yeah but that is important
Banzailizard: saves our HP
Grotsnot: agreed just not expecting to do damage next turn what with the pillaging to do
Banzailizard: fair enough
Banzailizard: ok so pillage next turn
Banzailizard: buy a trader with the new harbor?
Grotsnot: if I do get a good slug opportunity I'll divert the boat
Grotsnot: ah yes that was the other question
Grotsnot: 17 techs....
Banzailizard: can it be in Riga?
Grotsnot: it can yes
Banzailizard: I am thinking a 9 gold 1 production route would be helpful there
Grotsnot: trader is gonna cost 105
Banzailizard: even a little production is good starting off
Grotsnot: so what's that 12turn payoff clock?
Banzailizard: how much will we get from pillaging?
Banzailizard: yeah
Banzailizard: 12 turns
Grotsnot: hmm 200 or 300 pillage I think
Banzailizard: ok
Banzailizard: I think the trader is fine
Grotsnot: can pillage 2 farms but the 3rd zerker is stuck slogging through a forest hill
Grotsnot: there's 9 total pillages available on Apu I think
Banzailizard: ok
Banzailizard: we will have to repair those but that should be fine
Grotsnot: the southern farm and pasture might not worth going that far out of the way
Banzailizard: worth the gold and VP
Banzailizard: hmm
Banzailizard: send the new archer
Grotsnot: yeah I almost always capture a builder with the city
Banzailizard: to go pillage that
Banzailizard: 4 turns
Grotsnot: tricky part of going straight there is Wolin troops on the southern border sometimes but yeah good thought, will keep an eye out for that
Grotsnot: also getting shot by walls while embarked unless we knock em down first
Banzailizard: kk
Grotsnot: that north farm is the only safe beach I think
Banzailizard: and swap policies next turn should mean longships will be set in like 5 turns
Grotsnot: yup yup
Banzailizard: and more gold
Banzailizard: actuallty
Banzailizard: 10 turns for that trader
Grotsnot: I was gonna have Kop and Birka start longships too, should be 2T builds
Banzailizard: with the +2
Grotsnot: oh kickass you're rigt
Banzailizard: to pay off
Grotsnot: forgot about that
Banzailizard: will bring us up to 54 per turn
Grotsnot: sweet
Grotsnot: 56 I think? +3 from the harbor and -1 from the archer
Banzailizard: ah
Banzailizard: right
Banzailizard: I forgot the harbor gives godl too
Grotsnot: think it's worth buying another longship next turn with pillage monies?
Banzailizard: hmmm
Banzailizard: not sure
Banzailizard: I don't think there will be enough to pillage for it
Grotsnot: treasury should get us nearly the whole way to the trader so we could afford it
Banzailizard: like what is the immedate ROI on that
Grotsnot: on another boat?
Grotsnot: mm
Banzailizard: yeah
Banzailizard: like what does having it now get us that we do not get in another few turns?
Grotsnot: potentially Apu's 2nd fishing boat
Banzailizard: so a diffrene of only 35 realistically
Grotsnot: yeah if we set up a seige on T5 there's not enough move to pillage the south boats
Banzailizard: ok
Banzailizard: I am fine with that
Banzailizard: 50vp is worth 35 gold
Grotsnot: so T6 could be double fishing pillage then city attack
Grotsnot: ok cool
Grotsnot: 25 even, I think?
Grotsnot: yeah
Banzailizard: ok
Banzailizard: even better
Grotsnot: and in theory it'll get more pillage out in the west
Grotsnot: but we'll have to see
Grotsnot: ok so next turn pillage shit, build longships, policy swap, buy trader in Riga, buy Longship in Kop
Grotsnot: and kill units
Grotsnot: oh Halfdan is first this time
Banzailizard: maybe buy longship in Riga too?
Banzailizard: rather than kop
Grotsnot: well shit denmark will probably get him on their turn
Grotsnot: yeah it's 6&1-half-dozen for Apu attacks
Grotsnot: figured Kop was marginally more flexible
Banzailizard: I figured the one in Riga will pillage the north and sidge
Banzailizard: the one in kop will pillage the fishing ship then go to wolin
Banzailizard: to coastal raid and keep an eye on danemark
Grotsnot: all right
Banzailizard: we want to know if they rush twoards Wolin
Grotsnot: 3 pillages could buy 1 in each
Grotsnot: might be getting excessive with 4 in production
Banzailizard: I think so
Grotsnot: but more longships is more better
Banzailizard: but so is gold
Banzailizard: keep the gold, if we want more longships after we can buy quickly
Grotsnot: true
Grotsnot: ok
Banzailizard: that is why I was asking before what would that third LS get us right now
Grotsnot: I mean there is value in getting out to the channel/iberia/med/anatolia faster
Banzailizard: so what buy it and send it out right away?
Banzailizard: ahead of the rest?
Grotsnot: hmm
Banzailizard: I mean we could just asking for a plan
Grotsnot: no no it's a good point
Banzailizard: I would say think on it
Banzailizard: you decied tomorrow
Grotsnot: we would want more than 1 to distribute AI fire
Grotsnot: but norway and denmark have assloads of boats too
Grotsnot: and we get the last turn so while we get the worst pillage pickings we can make sure we're hiding among where they can take shots too
Banzailizard: right
Grotsnot: but yeah will think more on it. Can post thoughts to the forum
Banzailizard: kk
Grotsnot: you have a final and I have sleep to do
Banzailizard: indeed

[Grotsnot]

All right, on to Turn 4. Doesn't have any commentary - Banzai was busy for the day and I botched passing the save so I took the turn when it arrived the morning after. We planned out a bunch of it at the end of the chat log of the previous turn.

First off, finishing our Harbor in Birka gets us Naval Tradition and a policy swap over to Maritime Industries:





And the Archer finished in Kopingsvik gets us a Portage bonus



Both cities get started on Longships. Gotta get a fleet out to go catch up on pillage!

Out in the world, the Danes have already finished a Harbor in Thetford, killed another unit with a Berserker, and plinked down Utrecht a little:





No pillage for Norway this turn, must be repositioning. Maybe traversing around Scotland to get to the pillageables on the western coast?

Missed the screencap the first time and to go back and reload the save to get the scores:



Opponent details:

The Danish are also bogarting the pillage we were planning on grabbing down by Wolin



On the plus side, this is the most incompetent Apuole I have ever seen. Over my half-dozen-ish test starts they generally have at least 2 Archers and manage them better. This time they only took one piddly plink at two of our Zerkers!
We start putting that +2 movement to good use: the Berserker in the water charges over the hill into the Archer - earning us the Military Tradition Civic, the one on the Farm pillages and advances - earning us a boost for Stirrups, and the 3rd Zerker moves onto the other Farm and pillages us. Gets all our units healed (aside from the very small damage the Archer did as it died), 200, and 120VP!







Our new Longship scouts south a little and sees no Danes in the water tile by Wolin. One possible error by me was going to cover the Fishing Boats by Apuole instead of blocking them at Wolin (but with the benefit of hindsight it worked out for the best )
My other error was in not buying the Trader before killing the Archer - resulted in overpaying by 15



City details: